Vanoord
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18 years ago
Is the object at the top right of the picture a bridge support? Looks like one I've seen a picture of in Croesor but not found the real thing - or for that matter seen one anywhere else.

It looks like a support which hangs from the wall rather than being ceiling-hung, which I suspect is rather rare in the slate industry. Can anyone cast any light on whether there are any more of these still in existence?

Photograph:

[img]http://www.aditnow.co.uk/showimage?f=/community/Cwmorthin-Quarry-24-06-2007-Image-005/[/img]

Here's a http://www.aditnow.co.uk/supersize/Cwmorthin-Quarry-24-06-2007-Image-005/  to a full sized version.
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simonrl
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18 years ago
Hmm, looks like it could be. Pity that's such a bad photo (I'm allowed to say that, I took it!), it's hard to make out what's on the left hand wall.

Bizarely the timber on the chamber floor appears to be attached to the cable that is anchored on the left hand wall in the foreground?
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merddinemrys
18 years ago
Looks vaguely like the wooden cranes in Aberllefenni. Maybe some sort of hoist which had a pulley on it at some time? Just a guess.
Vanoord
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18 years ago
"merddinemrys" wrote:

Looks vaguely like the wooden cranes in Aberllefenni. Maybe some sort of hoist which had a pulley on it at some time? Just a guess.



I reckon you can see the deck support for the bridge hanging down from the left hand side?
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Vanoord
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18 years ago
Zoomed-in version of the pic:

[img]http://www.aditnow.co.uk/showimage?f=/community/Cwmorthin-Quarry-24-06-2007-Image-022/[/img]

Looks like there's a hanger on the right hand side that would have supported the bridge support beam?

Jon Knowles' article "The Exploration of Croesor Slate Mine" describes the remains of these in Croesor (Chamber B3 West) and suggests they're unique to there. Not so, it seems...

Can Grahami cast any light on these?
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Barney
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18 years ago
Where can i find this article by Jon Knowles?
Vanoord
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18 years ago
Erm, I'm not sure. I'll email you when I find out πŸ˜‰
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grahami
18 years ago
Hmm .. curious. I don't know of any reference to these peculiar bridge supports in my reading of reports etc. on Oakeley & Cwmorthin - but then matters dealt with in the normal course of setting things up often do not get a mention. Making bridges across chambers would come under that category and would'nt really rate a mention unless there was something of a problem that needed consultation - or there was an accident. Like the incredible 2 chamber + 1 wall bridge on DE floor in Welsh Slate (Oakeley lower) which was all spliced together.... until they trammed three loaded wagons onto it at the same time and it collapsed! Looking at the picture, I wonder if it was done because the roof at the point where you would normally expect a support to be hung from was bad ??

Grahami
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stevem
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18 years ago
"Barney" wrote:

Where can i find this article by Jon Knowles?



http://www.catmhs.org.uk/pubs.php 
They have it listed in their publications.
CATMHS Journal Number 4. "The Mine Explorer" Β£9.50 + 1.00p&p
I guess you just contact them. Wouldn't mind a copy myself but haven't done anything about it yet.
Cheers
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simonrl
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18 years ago
"grahami" wrote:

Like the incredible 2 chamber + 1 wall bridge on DE floor in Welsh Slate (Oakeley lower) which was all spliced together.... until they trammed three loaded wagons onto it at the same time and it collapsed!



I meant to reply to this ages ago and forgot 😞 Do you know if any photographs of this bridge survived at all Graham?
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Captain Scarlet
18 years ago
I have a PDF of this article if anyone wants it
STANDBY FOR ACTION!!!!...
Vanoord
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18 years ago
So does Steve now πŸ˜‰
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grahami
18 years ago
"simonrl" wrote:

"grahami" wrote:

Like the incredible 2 chamber + 1 wall bridge on DE floor in Welsh Slate (Oakeley lower) which was all spliced together.... until they trammed three loaded wagons onto it at the same time and it collapsed!



I meant to reply to this ages ago and forgot 😞 Do you know if any photographs of this bridge survived at all Graham?



Regrettably this happened in 1888 and, as far as I know, the bridges had not been photographed. This is the full account(from my volume 2):
....an accident in the Lower Quarry in which five men were killed. The site of the accident was one of the bridges across the chambers. It was described briefly in the Caernarfon and Denbigh Herald on the 17th. February 1888, the day after the accident and more details were given on the 24th:

"The five men, together with John Roberts, Rhiw, started out of the underground workings for their dinner, taking with them three loaded trucks, which they pushed before them, two men being in charge of each truck. The first wagon was pushed forward by Owen Parry and John Roberts, and when they had reached the bridge which crossed shaft No.1, they appear to have stopped on the bridge. John Roberts, knowing that the other two trucks were following closely upon their track, stepped forward in order to avoid being crushed between his wagon and the next that came up, and this step of his proved the means of saving his life. The other two trucks followed quickly, and all three were massed on the bridge, together with the six men, when suddenly a sound was heard as of timber or iron breaking, and in a moment the bridge gave way, breaking in the middle, and precipitating the unfortunate men and their trucks into the dreadful abyss below, a depth of over 30 yards. John Roberts felt the bridge giving way and clutched an iron rail which ran along the side of the falling structure, and thus he held himself up until assistance came. His feelings at these moments may be better imagined than described, hanging as he was by the arms onto a light rail, which, for all he knew, might give way at any moment and precipitate him after his unfortunate fellow workmen, whose bodies lay mangled in the shaft below him. The sound of falling timber, stone and iron quickly brought men to the place, and they rescued Roberts from his perilous position. Dr. Jones appeared promptly upon the scene, only to confirm the worst fears of the assembled workmen and find that all five men were beyond the reach of all human aid.

The sad news rapidly spread through the extensive quarry, and all work was suspended for the day. The inhabitants of the district generally were thrown into consternation at learning the news, and deep gloom seemed to settle over Ffestiniog as the sad details were made known."

The inquest was held in the presence of Dr. C.LeNeve Foster, the Government Inspector of Mines and the Quarry Manager - presumably Robert Roberts, although the newspaper account says the Manager of the Welsh Slate Quarry (sic). The coroner addressed the jury on the importance of the inquest they were to conduct, saying that he had spoken to Dr. Foster on the subject and would be in communication with the Secretary of State on the matter. He said that one of the most important things they had to determine was the strength of the bridge and went on,"My duty as coroner is simply to ascertain whether there has been any criminal negligence on the part of any party or parties in a case of this nature. For instance, it is our duty to ascertain whether or not the bridge had been so imperfectly erected as to be a source of danger to anyone using it." He went on to warn the jury not to listen to any tittle-tattle they might hear, but to keep their minds clear. After viewing the bodies and adjourning the inquest the coroner praised the jury, saying that he had never had any trouble or bother with Ffestiniog juries.

The dead were: David Jones, 29, a carter of Rhiw - he was buried at Penmachno; Richard Edwards of Penmorfa, 48; Evan Jones of Wesley Street, Blaenau, 30 - he was buried at Capel Garmon; Owen Parry of Gwyndy, Rhiw, 31; and William Lloyd of Park Square, Blaenau, 19. Only William Lloyd was unmarried, the others leaving four wives and nine children behind them. It was estimated that over 1500 people were present in each of the funeral processions.

The map is the territory - especially in chain scale.
Vanoord
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18 years ago
Thank you Graham - presumably this area would have been lost to untopping a long while back?

Volume 2...? πŸ™‚
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grahami
18 years ago
"Vanoord" wrote:

Thank you Graham - presumably this area would have been lost to untopping a long while back?

Volume 2...? πŸ™‚



Difficult to explain without a map - but yes!

Volume 1 of my History of the Oakeley Quarries is being edited currently (don't ask, at least J.K.Rowling doesn't have to justify all her names, events etc. and quote references for them....)

Grahami
The map is the territory - especially in chain scale.
grahami
18 years ago
There've been some other posts in other topics on water and collapses etc. as well as comments on the men using the catwalks - spare a thought for the Welsh Slate company men working under these circumstances:...
"1880 The manager was also now troubled with walls 5 and 6 where the DE bridges crossed them. A fall in July resulted in desperate measures being taken to keep the bridge up. Forty feet was added to the length of the bridge ! The bridges were "strengthened" by drilling holes in the roof to hold and fix extra transverse supports under the bridges hung by strong wrought iron stays - that is the weight of the bridges was hung from the roof itself rather than relying upon the walls at either end.

Boulders "ran" down the fall in the chambers, which was now piled so high that they struck the bridges and rested against them. The bridge in Chamber 1 had had to be repaired no less than 3 times. The chambers were so full by now that concern was expressed that any more blocks would slide over the fall and carry away the bridges.

Wall 5 finally gave way under the DE bridge in September 1880, the repairs this time being nothing if not dramatic - the new span of the bridge was now two chambers and one pillar and a few feet into pillar 6 over a "hollow", the whole bridge being suspended from the clay slant roof by iron bars. Even Owen admitted that he did not know whether the slant could stand a loaded truck over the bridge as "we never had occasion to do such things before" !

1881
Falls from walls 4 and 5 continued into June, by July a lookout had been placed below the DE bridges to warn of any change. Wall 2 was also showing signs of imminent collapse due to the fast crumbling wall 1 which had a tunnel running lengthwise through it, seriously reducing its effective strength..

In late July wall 4 at last gave way along the clay slant above the bridges stopping DE, F, G, H and I floors. The roof being carried away meant that there was now no way to restore the bridges. Chambers 1 and 2 on K floor were stopped by a fall from wall 1, chamber 1 now being worked on K floor below I. The bridges over chambers 2 and 5 were removed as of no further use.

Another fall from wall 3 left a hole right through it, this was followed by a fall from wall 2 under the site of the bridge, while a bridge in I floor was also carried away. "
The map is the territory - especially in chain scale.
Miles
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18 years ago
Does this explain then why the bridge on floor 3 ch17 is so substantial? It has five roof supports rather than one and four baulks rather than two, which is more the Festiniog norm.

In response to the original post, yes that's a 'wall bridge' exactly the same as those found in Croesor and incorrectly procaimed as unique to there.

It connects the level under the hanging wall to a level at the footwall end. Normally they put a catwalk in, whereas these wall-bridges could carry a tramway. It's catilevered from the side to hold it in place. It's the only place in Cwm/Oakeley I've seen that done.
Vanoord
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18 years ago
My appetite is whet for the Oakeley books! When is the first one due?

I suspect that it will clear up a lot of the confusion that exists in my head about the relative positions of the Middle Quarry, Hollands etc. - with the huge hole in the ground that's there now, it's very difficult to relate the past to the present.

Indeed MM, this sort of bridge has been accused of being native only to Croesor but one has been found here, confounding all of us. I'm not convinced it's a true cantilever though - the 'deck' should really be part of the supporting structure (in tension along the top and in compression along the bottom).

I wonder if there were any more in the Oakeley/Cwmorthin workings?
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grahami
18 years ago
These "side bridges" replaced the earlier practice of leaving a bench alongside the wall from the clay slant level where the original level was and where the bridges were usually placed to retain access to the working floor of the chamber when it was worked away from below (if you follow me). However, as you can imagine, the bench made the chamber below it narrower so could only be done a few times on successive floors - unless of course you undercut the bench (possible becasue of the way the pillaring runs - its not vertical) in which case the chamber stayed the same width, but the benches were prone to cracking off.... a side bridge was much safer and easier!

Grahami
The map is the territory - especially in chain scale.
simonrl
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18 years ago
Just for comparison, here's Nimrod's shot of the one in Croesor from Friday...

πŸ”—Dark-Places-Big-Bash-CRTT-10-08-2007-Image-010[linkphoto]Dark-Places-Big-Bash-CRTT-10-08-2007-Image-010[/linkphoto][/link]
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