Good point too Vanoord..... NAMHO's guidelines DO permit Mineral Collecting!!!
Take it you disapprove??? :angel:

But would they permit the wilful destruction of the mine to collect the minerals?
I think maybe not :thumbdown:

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I'd say that the NAMHO bunch by definition were likely to come up with something that the Royal Society of Minerals might disagree with.

Mineral collecting is acceptable. Some may find it odd, but they may also find it odd why someone is interested in the origin of a shaft name.....

Damage is unacceptable.

I find the hostility to those with a genuine interest in the chemicals and their presence very odd indeed. After all it was the direct concern of the people who's histories we are enthusing about.....

As you were.

I'm still not quite sure about this hopper thing - there's claims that Carrock has suffered too.. I repeat my point - nobody, in their right mind, would pull down a hopper. It's tantamount to suicide, and they are collapsing all the time on their own. WHERE, please, does anyone manage to come up with the justification for collectors pulling hoppers down. Give me an example - where, when, who?

I have spend half my life working underground as a geologist. I helped the miners on weekends - often blasting hoppers to get the stopes running again - there is nothing, I repeat, nothing of interest to a collector in a hopper.

Another point..

I note earlier that someone mentioned that a now 'no longer with us' collector destroyed everything in a cavity that he couldnt get at. I know the story well - it was often said of Dick Barstow. I was pretty much his protege - he taught me nearly all I know about minerals, aided by Peter Embrey at the Natural History Museum. I collected all over the country with Dick, from about 1972 to 1982, when I went all over the country with him a month before he died - he even showed me the Vanadinite locality in Wanlockhead which I've never been back to - vanadinite all over the place, which I could make a fortune out of if I was a dealer - maybe I'll go for a dig up there one day soon - under cover of darkness so other dealers don't see me visiting a Barstow shrine which even Dick never cleared out - he only ever took a few bits out - I have them today - superb, as good as the best of the old-time classics, and worth a bomb... In all those years of collecting, Dick never once destroyed anything. He was careful, gentle, a great teacher. Always cleared up after himself, always made me give representative pieces to the Museum, always made sure pieces were available to give to children who visited with their parents, and NEVER, I repeat, NEVER rammed a chisel down a cavity to destroy specimens left. So please.. don't talk about Dick with third party stories that you have no personal knowledge of. Its just another example of collector bashing that really can't be justified.

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On another issue - Paul - you ask me to PM - I have to say publicly that you are the author of this latest storm, so
I think you need to see all the communications that result from it - and my hiding my feelings behind Pm's will not help. I DO however have very strong feelings about education, and I'm going to start another topic on education, which please, collectors, will NOT descend into arguments about collecting. I'm passionate about kids and education, and I personally think the Heritage Centre has fallen massively short of any remit to educate - evidenced by friends who visited over the weekend and were scathing about the lack of anything worthwhile for kids. So if you want to see my feelings on that one, head for the new topic, put collecting aside, and think about kids.

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Having read this thread, and previous ones (including the infamous one with the alleged “threats”) I can’t help but think how I’ve seen this all before with my hobby of metal detecting. The parallels are quite striking. Most detectorists are responsible, and make a positive contribution to archaeology. A few cowboys plunder ancient monuments at night, and we all then get tarred with the same brush by a small, but rabid, band of bigots who’d ban all detecting if they could. This, in turn, antagonises the good detectorists, some of whom get so fed up with being blamed for the actions of a few that, like the collector who got expelled, they take a “f**k you” attitude to anybody who stands in their way, or makes any criticism of the hobby. This further provokes the anti-detectorists, and so the cycle feeds on itself.

Fortunately, enough people have enough sense to see that detecting is more beneficial than destructive, and that total banning would only be counter-productive, as well as impractical (you can’t police every site everywhere all the time). It has been tried in Ireland, which has some of the most draconian anti-detecting laws in Europe, yet still it goes on clandestinely, and few have ever been caught. Whatever gets found now is simply not declared, whereas in a more relaxed regime (as in the UK) it would be, so we all lose. Mineral collecting is the same. Yes, sometimes mischief happens, but I would argue the pros outweigh the cons, and stopping it totally at mines would be detrimental as it would stop new or interesting discoveries, or at least stop them being declared for, as in Ireland, the activity would only be driven underground (excuse the pun).

I hope that both sides in this debate will avoid the intemperate language that has caused problems in the past, but I also hope that the moderators will allow robust debate on the collecting issue, as it is only through such debate that the cowboys and bigots alike can be isolated, and the rest of us can reach a better accommodation and understanding. I am happy to report that after some hostilities in the early days the detecting debate (at least in the UK) has largely resolved into a mutual understanding between the detecting and archaeological camps to the extent that detectorists are even invited to assist in digs, and treasure trove law has been improved. If only mine explorers and collectors could come to some similar accommodation.

On another issue - Paul - you ask me to PM - I have to say publicly that you are the author of this latest storm, so
I think you need to see all the communications that result from it - and my hiding my feelings behind Pm's will not help. I DO however have very strong feelings about education, and I'm going to start another topic on education, which please, collectors, will NOT descend into arguments about collecting. I'm passionate about kids and education, and I personally think the Heritage Centre has fallen massively short of any remit to educate - evidenced by friends who visited over the weekend and were scathing about the lack of anything worthwhile for kids. So if you want to see my feelings on that one, head for the new topic, put collecting aside, and think about kids.

[mod]Apart from being completely off topic, I would like to request that people on here think carefully before using AditNow as a vehicle to conduct personal tirades and rants against other contributors.
Thank you.

[/mod]

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15. Collect enough specimens for your own needs only and NEVER collect for commercial gain.

I would be interested in a definition of "for your own needs".

What do individual people "need" from the specimens they collect, whether artefacts or minerals?

I find it quite telling that nobody seems bothered enough to answer this question, whichever perspective they have..... 😞

There is no point in taking potshots at each other - what does it achieve? Fine, you nail your colours to the mast, but you are not going to persuade anyone to think your way unless you discuss things with a cool head.

Sorry to get slghtly off topic again, I know we are discussing minerals here but someone mentioned rubbish in Smallcleugh which is something annoys me. I always collect a bit if I am down there but usually dont have any room in my bag to put much so I had been thinking it would be nice if I could get some folk to come specifically for a litter collection trip. Maybe taking some strong bags and trying to get as much rubbish as possible especially in the Ballroom where the empty sardine tins seem to be breeding.

Maybe I should start another thread but I thought whilst we are on the subject of Smallcleugh, I'd ask if anyone would be up for it. I know it would probably be fighting a losing battle but it all helps I guess. Just wonder what other folks think 🙂

I find it quite telling that nobody seems bothered enough to answer this question, whichever perspective they have..... 😞

There is no point in taking potshots at each other - what does it achieve? Fine, you nail your colours to the mast, but you are not going to persuade anyone to think your way unless you discuss things with a cool head.

I'm not sure there isn't a question to be asked of "why" someone would want to collect minerals from a mine.

And then I suppose we could ask "why" go into abandoned mines - and that would probably answer the first question by association.

I guess the "need" quantity would be enough to provide a display sample and a quantity for testing?

I know little about such things other than perhaps suggesting that the quantities required to achieve each of these requirements may differ from mineral type to mineral type?

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15. Collect enough specimens for your own needs only and NEVER collect for commercial gain.

I would be interested in a definition of "for your own needs".

What do individual people "need" from the specimens they collect, whether artefacts or minerals?

I find it quite telling that nobody seems bothered enough to answer this question, whichever perspective they have..... 😞

There is no point in taking potshots at each other - what does it achieve? Fine, you nail your colours to the mast, but you are not going to persuade anyone to think your way unless you discuss things with a cool head.

I'd say that collecting and ordering things was a fundamental feature of the male pattern mind.

What they do with them after is more subjective. Everyone can add some sort of altruistic label to this, which usually makes them look like a better person. For instance, I like to think that I might have changed the whole course of someone's life and added something to the subject matter of science by showing a student one of my "rocks". In actual fact, I would collect it anyway and compare, contrast and theorise over it. The time spent doing these sorts of things is essential and provides essential relief from modern life. This is most certainly a need and is practised by all to a degree. Minerals allow you to do this sort of thing and I suppose, it has the same features of other male hobbies.

1. Collecting
2. Competition
3. Trade/Profit/Achievement
4. Escapism

It's what you do when all your other drives have been fulfilled!

Had some food? Check.
Had a drink? Check.
Had a shag? Check
Happy with the house roof? Yep

What to do? Get involved with some self absorbing nerdy stuff!

Collecting for me is the opportunity to research and build a collection of the material available from a particular place. I can't afford Cornish material, but the north of England has always been a second home, so I built collection of Alston and Weardale specimens. I recently bought part of the Philadelphia collection from the States, which had a lot of very old Alston pieces. I unashamedly want the best material from each locality, and have built what I think is a fairly good collection, which one day I hope will form the core of a public resource - I'm single, probably will always be, dont have family - so actively looking for a way to find a good permanent home for the collection. I trust Col. Mustard will take on board my comments in the light of this - I'd like to think the NPHT would be sympathetic to collections and collecting for that reason - can't think of a better place for my specimens - but I need to be confident they can handle it -which at the moment I'm not, which is why I am trying to encourage the education side of it - I'm not sure its as off topic as perhaps I sounded - surely, collecting, in its pure form, is to inform and educate others who are not able to go underground - and to preserve for future generations when the mines finally collapse or flood, as they undoubtedly will - look at Florence - we all thought it would go on forever, but it didnt.

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Hooray. Some intelligent thinking. Finally.

There's also a massive difference between picking up a small sample that's lying on the floor in order to take it home to add to a personal collection and removing as much as you can carry in order to sell it on.

What's lying on the floor is generally battered, trampled on, damaged trash. Collectors seek perfect, undamaged crystals, which is why they target fresh vugs. Expecting someone to make do with a battered lump off the floor when there's a pristine sparkling cavity nearby is like telling a car enthusiast to be content with a rusty door off a Robin Reliant, when he could have a brand new Porsch. As for taking as much as possible away to sell on, at least that ensures it is widely distributed amongst people who'd otherwise never get to see it, and more will survive above ground long into the future, and long after the mine has collapsed for good.

I'd suspect that a decent proportion of mine explorers have a few 'rocks' sat around, which will have been picked up rather than physically removed. But I'd reckon that those same people are entirely against any form of collection that involves altering the fabric of a site.

Whilst we can agree (I hope) that damaging mining features like hoppers, or destablising the mine and thereby making it more dangerous, are unacceptable, I get the impression that "altering the fabric" is being used too broadly so that even hammering a wall, without damaging features etc. would be considered "altering the fabric". But hammering is often necessary to get the vugs open wide enough so that their contents can be removed. If collectors could not do that mineralogy would be greatly diminished. The greatest mineral treasures in our museums have nearly all come from vugs, and were not just lying on the floor.

I'd also like to observe that I don't go onto mineral collecting forums and argue vehemently that people shouldn't be damaging mines.

You are welcome to try!


Great earlier post by Skippy making it clear that it is not just collectors who cause damage.
Also good posts from Moorlandmineral.

Now I'll tell you my take on this subject.

I used to collect fossils and minerals when a teenager. I still have several drawers stuffed away in a shed. I probably haven't got any of them out since I selected a very few to stick on a shelf some years ago. I probably won't bother to look at them again for some years.

I don't collect nowadays unless I see something really special, and I don't go out of my way to look for specimens. If I see something interesting lying in a mine, I pick it up, look at it, maybe photograph it, and put it down again.

I used to 'save' artefacts from the depredations of squirrels in our local mines. You can see the contradiction, I suspect. I have made amends for my disturbance by properly recording the items I either kept or placed in the care of a museum, and ensure that the information is available for research. I have even put some things back when I know exactly where they came from.

The sites are safe from further theft, and I am quite happy to record items in situ, and perhaps move anything that is at risk of being trodden on to a safe place close by, especially where the exact context isn't of paramount importance.

As for my early mineral collecting, it served a useful purpose for me in that it allowed me to learn which mineral is which by comparison and context, so I have a better idea of what I see nowadays when underground, or browsing a spoil heap.

It was when I started exploring mines as a mine explorer rather than as a mineral collector that I appreciated the value of archaeology and context. Understanding the geology of a site is important so I don't regret having taken some specimens out of old workings. I have never sold anything I have collected.

I fully endorse the NAMHO guidelines.

I have not abandoned the collecting obsession. Now it is knowledge I collect, and I find this many times more rewarding than a collected pile of dubiously identified rocks whose exact provenance I have long forgotten.

.

. Expecting someone to make do with a battered lump off the floor when there's a pristine sparkling cavity nearby is like telling a car enthusiast to be content with a rusty door off a Robin Reliant, when he could have a brand new Porsch..

I've been deliberately keeping out of this debate (saw it all the last time) but I just have to point out that Reliant Robin doors don't rust. They are called 'Plastic Pigs' for a reason you know.
😉

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I'd be very happy with a Reliant Robin - at least nobody is likely to nick it, unlike a Porsche. We nicknamed the one a work colleague had many years ago "The Bouncing Turd".

Well Said Patch....

Seen what they've done ....

This is referring to Patch's comments on the state of ****** mine. Now it's been a long time since I was there (1970s), but as I understand it, ****** mine has been sealed and off-limits for years now. This begs the question, how can Skippy have got into a sealed, off-limits mine, in order to see what has been done???

Off topic matey - but there's lots of ways into ******, as the unfortunate who dropped the mine onto his leg will attest..

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I sit and look at some of the arching in the nenthead mines and build huge respect for the men who built them, I`m sure most people on this forum have seen them and stand in amazement at the work, It would never enter my head to pull this sort of archeology down, it would be like shooting yourself in the foot....what would you look at next time in. I think if one looks at the bigger picture..the amount of mines which are visited around the u.k. including Nenthead the total amount of damage is not that great overall, but localise it and it becomes a bone of contention, and rightfully so. The amount of posts on this string has brought out the red mist it seems, Its right for people to get upset when wilful damage is being done by person/persons unknown to historic artifacts (and thats what hoppers are) we all talk among ourselves about who has done this and who has done that, but it is usually 2/3 hand by the time it gets to us, no-one seems to have seen anyone damaging these things, if I saw someone damaging a truck in one of the mines I`d nail him to it. we were given a brain so why not use it, future generations including my grandchildren will inherit what is left, so I deplore wilful damage like the hoppers .If this sort of thing continues and they certainly will, we will see NO GO in places we all enjoy...it has happened as we all know, quarries....no access. mines blown in or severly gated. building of interest blown down under the guise of unsafe do to vandlism. there seem to be enough serious and dedicated people on this forum alone to "police " areas which we all enjoy. I have been in and out of mines for 60 years, and I have seen some stuff I can tell you, but nothing like what I see now when in mines (and not just Nenthead) tins, bottles, plastic bags,green sandwiches, hidden drills,hidden ladders, hidden stashes of minerals,spent carbide, I could go on but I`m sure you have all seen it. WHY! bringing out your waste is so light it wouldn`t make a difference to the load, you carried more in when the packets was full!!!!. I don`t think it`s "us" and "them" its all of us seeing what we enjoy being spoilt by some uncaring filistine/s who seem to think its a big place, one ore hopper won`t make a difference....well moron/s it will make a difference..try pulling one of your teeth out see if that makes a difference to your mug. get my picture. when it`s gone...it`s gone.

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Jagman wrote:

in their quest for a couple of quids worth of shiney things.

This reminded me of something which rather took my breath away when I visited the Bakewell mineral show last year. It has taken me a little time to find the link but here it is:

www.mindat.org/article.php/449/Bakewell+Show+2008

Scroll down until you find the report on one Peter Ward. He had some really spectacular galena specimens from Rampgill, priced at £1800. Yes One Thousand Eight Hundred Pounds!!! EACH. I went there over Christmas and found the spot (the combination with fluorite is quite distinctive so I could even find the exact vug). Drill holes surrounded it. The specimens had clearly been blasted out.

Now visit his website: www.campylite.com

Look at the prices: campylite £2000, £4500, £2600 ...

Read about his exploits. A few quotes:
[Dry Gill mine] "More digs were organised, and I became Campylite King - boxes of the stuff piled up at home - almost every week I'd be up there digging away - sometimes on my own for days at a time"

"Dick was getting worried. I was finding as much as he was - if not more. The monthly lists were carrying campylite, pyromorphite, sphalerite, fluorite, barite - all dug during the many visits I was making up north."

" I was digging into the pillar which held the stope open, and with a huge rumble, a pile of stacked deads and vein material fell out of the pillar and crashed down onto Dicks' staging."

"I'd say a good proportion of the campylite on the market today came from our efforts"

[Burgam mine] "I still have hundreds if not thousands of pieces from there"

Many have commented here on commercial collectors, or taking more than one needs, or damaging the fabric of mines. Here, it seems, we have one such character openly bragging about it! COMMENTS REMOVED It is people like these who give collectors a bad name. :curse: The financial sums involved also may explain why some are prepared to vandalise in pursuit of profit. Few would bother to tear down a hopper, or whatever, for a few quid, but for a few grand?

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