you might even suggest, if you weren't bothered quite who you offended, that a dealer was more of a 'purist' than an explorer...

*sigh*

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The mines were in the old days used for the extraction of minerals, however, in the old days there were no mine explorers' to make sure the minerals were NOT extracted!!!
Progress is such a wonderful thing..........

The mines were in the old days used for the extraction of minerals, however, in the old days there were no mine explorers' to make sure the minerals were NOT extracted!!!
Progress is such a wonderful thing..........

Here we go again, thats not what we are talking about.
What we are talking about is that some people feel it acceptable to demolish anything and everything in their quest for a couple of quids worth of shiney things.
That is a whole world different to digging a mine to get at minerals.
Is it acceptable to pull out hoppers, pack walls etc in the hunt for minerals?

Good old fashioned entropy is your biggest enemy Jagman, not Mineral Collectors. I have been in and out of mines for 30 years and Nature destroys at a rate of knots that makes the work of man insignificant.
However...... Basic tidiness in mines such as those at Nent is good manners, so in that we do agree....

The mines were in the old days used for the extraction of minerals, however, in the old days there were no mine explorers' to make sure the minerals were NOT extracted!!!
Progress is such a wonderful thing..........

In the old days, minerals were extracted after the mineral rights had been secured. Without those rights, the removal of any material from any mine is theft.

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oooo, glad I'm not one of those naughty dealers!

and there was me, thinking that the purpose and function of a mine was to extract minerals for commercial purposes :blink:

you might even suggest, if you weren't bothered quite who you offended, that a dealer was more of a 'purist' than an explorer...

I've highlighted the relevant word ;)

At risk of this thread degenerating into something that gets locked...

There's a big difference between combing through spoil heaps and using modern tools to drill into old walls, thus altering the fabric of a mine.

There's also a massive difference between picking up a small sample that's lying on the floor in order to take it home to add to a personal collection and removing as much as you can carry in order to sell it on.

I don't think it takes much work to figure out which of these positions sits best with the ethos of this website!

I'd suspect that a decent proportion of mine explorers have a few 'rocks' sat around, which will have been picked up rather than physically removed. But I'd reckon that those same people are entirely against any form of collection that involves altering the fabric of a site.

I'd also like to observe that I don't go onto mineral collecting forums and argue vehemently that people shouldn't be damaging mines. And I'm sure the users of this website would appreciate some reciprocal courtesy: sensible debate, yes; mindless argument, no thank you.

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Jeez you are all doing this S**t again....I bet there are a lot of dealers in artifacts and minerals peeing themselves laughing... and still counting the cash!

At least when I was exploring I was interested in the minerals and artifacts so was just an Explorer! Thats the bit I don't get... we all went underground together, we all understood each others point of view and had a great time.

We should perhaps be debating how we stop idiots from either camp wrecking what we have... I really do not get this... I have friends in both camps ... none of which do damage but care for the underground!
😞

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Thank you Vanoord for summing that up very succinctly.

And if anybody wants to continue the "it's what the mine is there for" in respect of pillage for personal gain argument then please read the Colonel's post first.

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Good old fashioned entropy is your biggest enemy Jagman, not Mineral Collectors. I have been in and out of mines for 30 years and Nature destroys at a rate of knots that makes the work of man insignificant.
However...... Basic tidiness in mines such as those at Nent is good manners, so in that we do agree....

Nature and gravity are inevitable. Often the efforts of the men who mined these places make that progress slow. Sometimes they do not.
That is a world apart from somebody choosing to go into a metal mine and deliberatly pull down hoppers or sections of roof etc in order to get mineral samples is it not?
If the persuit of a few pence worth of galena destroys something that has stood for decades or even centuries then who or what does that serve?

We should perhaps be debating how we stop idiots from either camp wrecking what we have...
😞

Thats the whole point ICLOK
I'm not interested in who has what shiney bit (well I am to an extent but thats another debate). What agrieves me is wanton destruction.
It is patently obvious we can't all get along, at least while some feel it is acceptable to set out to destroy what remains. I'm not even talking about the samples themselves, I'm talking about major damage to the fabric of mines.

ok, for was read is

I was asking what I thought, was a legitimate point. At one time or another in my career, I've entered old workings, demolished previous timberwork or trackwork and replaced it with new steelwork for the purpose of reworking mine works abandoned by the previous owner or owners; enlarged old haulageways, using explosives and mechanical picks, destroying pickmarks etc in the process; quarried away old workings ( and natural caverns ); drawn down old stopes and moved old tips by the tens and hundreds of tonnes for barytes, flourspar, roadbase and whatever else could be sold at a profit; removed an old steam winder with a fair amount of gas-axe work, to make room for a solid concrete plug; demolished old timber sollars and capped the resulting shafts with reinforced concrete; replaced old electric pumps with new ones; backfilled Victorian and earlier working with concrete by the tens of lorry-loads, and generally done whatever lands in front of you in a goodly number of years working for one mining contractor or another.

I happen, along the way, to have acquired an interest in how these working were once developed. This is of course, partly profesional.

I also have an ongoing interest in old railways, purely for their own sake, and in general chit-chat about people or places i happen to remember.

does this mean I shouldn't be here? Does it make me 'the real deal' or the greatest vandal in God's green world?

answers on one side of paper, please

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Vanoord, The basic ethos of this website surely must be to present a balanced, non-biased view on ALL aspects of the mining environment, neither pro nor anti-collecting, any more than it is neither pro, nor anti mine exploration. From what I have seen, this site sticks to that ethos well. It is a credit to those who run and maintain it. Mine explorers and Mineral Collectors both go underground. By entering a mine, both parties damage the environment to some degree. You are basing your complaint on a subject view as to what constitutes 'unacceptable damage'.
By your own admission, many mine explorers 'pick up' and keep 'a few' rocks. What constitutes a mineral collection? 3 pieces or 3000? Again, you set your particular standard and arbitrarily label accordingly. I have been underground many times over the years with the most 'die hard' ant-collectors, and almost to a man (or woman) I have seen them pick up minerals at one time or another.
Everytime a topic is raised involving damage in mines, then inevitably the effect of Mineral Collecting will be discussed. That is not a bad thing (as long as it doesn't get out of hand) its democracy

One has to assume that you had permission to be doing what you did and probably owned the mineral rights at the time!

What someone in that position does is hard to criticise, even if it does result in the destruction of a lot of history. That's why there isn't a picket line at Llechwedd, at Votty, at Oakeley or anywhere else you'd care to mention - despite the untopping work entirely destroying the original workings.

It is, however, very different to someone going into a mine and purposefully collapsing a mineral hopper for the purposes of removing a few samples.

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But thats my point... the idiots have always been there in both camps, however until I joined this site I never regarded these as seperate camps (how naive am I???) as those I went underground were all nice guys whether mineral or explorer interested.
I know nobody who would condone damage from either side but rather than debating how we re-educate or stop the *****s we just launch at each other and yes I've seen damage from mineral collectors but at the same time Ive seen just as bad from explorers! There is no excuse for wrecking our mines by anybody.... so the debate is as a hobby how we stop those who do... frankly I don't think the basic mineral collector does any more damage than basic cavers/mine explorers, I've taken small local samples but never trashed the mine to do so as did most explorers of my era! As for artifacts... nope my garden/house is free of mining tackle!
We live in different times when ££££ comes into everything and bands of people need to find a thrill crashing thru old workings without the knowledge to realise what they are wrecking as long as they get a buzz and can say they were there and heres my souvenir.
Hence why I like people on here who fit neither of the £££ or nutcase variety....

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My understanding Vanoord is that NPHT have a lease on the Vein's at Nent which allow for the removal of a few tonnes of Mineral specimens each year. This was negotiated with the lease owners the Catholic Trust. Correct me if I am wrong.
NPHT have never particularly objected to Mineral Collecting at Nent either. Mineral Collecting at Nent is hardly theft

Whenever we remove anything from any place, whether mine, quarry, historic landscape feature, area of natural interest, we should just ask one simple question of ourselves:

Am I confident and happy that by removing this item for my own personal gain I may be doing so to the detriment of others who have their own historical, geological, archaeological, or biological interests?

If you are not confident of this, and are not happy to do so, then don't. If you think you are probably making personal gain (financial or otherwise) at someone else's expense (financial or otherwise) and you are still happy to do it, then don't be surprised if others criticise your selfish behaviour. Loss of rare archaeological evidence in particular is irreplaceable.

The picture will always be complicated by commercial operations that effectively constitute a new mining enterprise. In such circumstances the historical destruction may possibly justify some form of recording or archaeological survey to be undertaken beforehand, which has an approximate parallel in the civil engineering field where archaeological assessments are undertaken before the destruction takes place.

So many questions when I should be working! 😉

Vanoord, The basic ethos of this website surely must be to present a balanced, non-biased view on ALL aspects of the mining environment, neither pro nor anti-collecting, any more than it is neither pro, nor anti mine exploration.

I'd have to refer you to this http://www.aditnow.co.uk/disclaimer/  and in particular, Section 3:

3. Preservation of Artifacts & Sites of Historical Interest

3.1. Should you enter any workings, used or dis-used, you agree the following:

3.1.1. You will ensure all reasonable measures to safeguard the mine or workings, used or dis-used, from any damage.

3.1.2. You, and members of your party or party of which you are a member, will under no circumstances leave graffiti.

3.1.3. You will not move or remove any artifact or item from the mine or working.

3.1.4. You will not deliberately dislodge or cause to dislodge any stones or debris, nor will drop or throw any stones or debris over edges or drops.

3.1.5. Formations, natural or otherwise, will be treated with the utmost of respect and under no circumstances whatsoever will be tampered with, removed, or otherwise interfered with.

Basically, Take only photographs, leave only footprints

By entering a mine, both parties damage the environment to some degree. You are basing your complaint on a subject(ive) view as to what constitutes 'unacceptable damage'.

Indeed I am being subjective: I'm entirely aware that I change the environment in which I walk, but I try to keep that as minimal as possible.

Where I draw the line at is substantially altering the fabric of a mine, for example collapsing a mineral hopper or chipping off (for example) a blue copper deposit from a wall. The rule of thumb must be to leave the place as I found it?

By your own admission, many mine explorers 'pick up' and keep 'a few' rocks. What constitutes a mineral collection? 3 pieces or 3000? Again, you set your particular standard and arbitrarily label accordingly.

I'm not sure I admitted! The word I used was "suspect"!

To my way of thinking, a collection of 3,000 specimens picked up from the floor is more acceptable than a collection of 3 specimens removed after 3 ore hoppers were collapsed.

For the record, my "collection" of minerals consists of one piece of lead ore, about 2" long. It was picked up off the floor and was amongst several hundred others.

I have been underground many times over the years with the most 'die hard' ant-collectors

:o :lol: (sorry, couldn't resist highlighting that!)

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Yes we at NPHT have such a lease. To my understanding nobody else has such a lease or agreement with either the land owners (us),the mine owners (Cumbria CC) or the mineral rights owners (The Catholic Trust).
NPHT does not condone commercial mineral collection (ie for profit / sale on ebay ...whatever.) The only way I believe to define commercial is by receiving payment - even just 1p !!!
Collection of minerals for your own use, or for bone fide educational use should be done by permission of mine owners, land owners and mineral rights owners.

We all know people pick up specimens for themselves...but actively demolishing areas underground has no support from NPHT, and, I imagine, 99% of those that go underground at Nenthead.

In starting this thread I merely wanted to bring our concerns into a public arena - not restart an argument that will never be settled.

this is the point that I am making.. many mining locations have complex histories resulting from successive commercial ventures for whom the archaeology is really not a consideration, once they have done enough to get the 'tree-huggers' from the council, as they see them, off their backs.

see also the thread elsewhere in this forum, about quarrying in the Peaks. I would come down firmly on the side that the lorry driver eating his chip-and-ketchup sandwich in a layby, sitting in his ARC owner-driver tipper's cab, is at least as 'authentic' a piece of local mining history as a re-enactor in a 'Poldark' hat down in the museum in Matlock.

and where does an operation like Wheal Rose ( is that the right name? ) fit in - a partly new development of historic workings in West Cornwall, carried out for purely recreational purposes by a handful of enthisiasts who have put a considerable amount of time and money into this over the years? Are they serious historians, a bunch of loonies, or what?

when it really comes down to it, mining is a livelihood, and not an easy or secure one. The rest is just window-dressing.

I could say, if I were so minded and less basically good-natured, and less interested in the historical side, that a mine explorer was a dilettante whose opinions weren't worth anything. I don't happen to believe that, but I've heard it said.

I will say that I have known several fatalities caused directly by entering into confined spaces without sufficient precautions, for collection reasons or simple curiosity. A contemporary of mine at Camborne met exactly this fate in Wheal Jane in the mid-1970s; and clearly this colours my views.

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Fair point about the ant-collectors!!! Mac keyboards are not the most responsive to my fingers at times!!!
To return to your comments tho.....
If you have collected a piece of Lead then you have collected, so by your own admission you chose to flout the very code of conduct you quote. Or is it back to a question of degree, what you regard as acceptable, and what is not?
You could interpret the code that you choose to quote in a most draconian fashion, however in that case, no one must enter a mine!
As I said, be it a Mineral Collectors or an Explorer, surely the more important point is to keep the environment tidy for all at the end of the day....