Paul,

My understanding is that NPHT have never had any issue with purely personal collecting at Nenthead. This has gone on since the mines were worked. Is this still correct?

don't ants have any rights then? 😢

newts, bats and badgers have more rights than some people, or so it appears at times.....

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If you have collected a piece of Lead then you have collected, so by your own admission you chose to flout the very code of conduct you quote.

Indeed. But it would be disingenuous of me to withhold such a fact.

Or is it back to a question of degree, what you regard as acceptable, and what is not?

Indeed - and to be honest, I don't think this is a desperately difficult issue. As I've stated in the past, altering the fabric of a mine is - in my opinion - not acceptable.

As I said, be it a Mineral Collectors or an Explorer, surely the more important point is to keep the environment tidy for all at the end of the day....

Tidy? Indeed - and "as you found it" ;)

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Paul,

My understanding is that NPHT have never had any issue with purely personal collecting at Nenthead. This has gone on since the mines were worked. Is this still correct?

We are currently reviewing, updating all our systems with regard to how we operate at our centres, including Nenthead. Two years ago we held two forums at Nenthead and invited comments from a broad spectrum of interested groups and individuals. In due course we will publish guidelines - broadly along the same guidelines that NAMHO have issued, but specific to Nenthead. Please send me a PM if you want to know more.

Bet the site administrators covering his ears!!!! 😮

I don't quite get this - people are talking about collapsing hoppers for specimens... Umm... there arent very many specimens in shale filled hoppers guys. Where the flippin eck did you get the idea that I, or anyone else vaguely sane, would go willingly down a mine and bring the place down around his ears for a pile of shale. Please get your facts right before going off half arsed making unfounded and inflammatory accusations....

🙂

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I take it that the fabric of a mine also includes surface features. In their archaeological assessment of the Trewavas site, the HES discussed the dressing floors that take the form of a series of terraces of mineral rich mine waste. Their recommendations were that local mineral collectors should be dissuaded from the large-scale removal of material, and from the excavation of trenches or pits to recover minerals from deeper deposits.
Noting what the colonel has correctly pointed out I would have thought that this would constitute unlawful damage and theft anyway.

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So Vanoord.....
You are against the following....
1) Digging collapsed levels/Hoppers. Lets face it, that alters the fabric of the mine. You can't say the mine ends up left as you found it.
2) Putting in Steel supports, Oil Drums, Timber etc etc, you could even stick those in as leaving things behind, oh.... also altering the fabric of the mine.
3) Digging difficult to get through passages... Yes altering the fabric of the mine....
4) Don't need to mention digging falls holding back deep water, that would surely be a cardinal sin????
That must surely make the NORPEX dig in Rampgill the most horrendous single act of desecration of a mines natural fabric you have ever come across?
I must hold my own hands up, I have partaken of a few of the above 'crimes', may I beg your forgiveness??? :thumbup: :thumbup:

I don't quite get this - people are talking about collapsing hoppers for specimens... Umm... there arent very many specimens in shale filled hoppers guys. Where the flippin eck did you get the idea that I, or anyone else vaguely sane, would go willingly down a mine and bring the place down around his ears for a pile of shale. Please get your facts right before going off half arsed making unfounded and inflammatory accusations....

🙂

Unfounded and inflammatory?
Yeh, whatever. As for hopper being pulled down, I've seen it and so have several others here.

I once blew out some old ore boxes to draw down the stopes above, but I did it with explosives from a LONG way away... mucking them out with the Eimco was pretty scary, you would never get away with doing something like that these days...

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So Vanoord.....
You are against the following....
1) Digging collapsed levels/Hoppers. Lets face it, that alters the fabric of the mine. You can't say the mine ends up left as you found it.
2) Putting in Steel supports, Oil Drums, Timber etc etc, you could even stick those in as leaving things behind, oh.... also altering the fabric of the mine.
3) Digging difficult to get through passages... Yes altering the fabric of the mine....
4) Don't need to mention digging falls holding back deep water, that would surely be a cardinal sin????
That must surely make the NORPEX dig in Rampgill the most horrendous single act of desecration of a mines natural fabric you have ever come across?
I must hold my own hands up, I have partaken of a few of the above 'crimes', may I beg your forgiveness??? :thumbup: :thumbup:

Now now... if I were less charitable, I might suggest you're being argumentative just for the sake of being argumentative 😉

In my opinion, you're deliberately mixing two things up: there's a big difference between doing something in order to maintain access and doing something in order to remove minerals or artefacts.

Both alter the fabric of the site, but one enhances while the other does not.

The NAHMO guidelines should be considered a good starting point: http://www.aditnow.co.uk/documents/personal-album-125/NAMHO-Guidelines-for-Mine-Exploration.pdf 

In particular:

15. Collect enough specimens for your own needs only and NEVER collect for commercial gain.
16. Do NOT destroy mine "scenery" by hammering at materials which will be irreparably damaged in so doing. Consider leaving such mineralisation in situ for future generations to enjoy.

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I think in the interests of relative peace and harmony this will be my last post on this thread but there are a couple of things I want to say-

Deliberate damage does occur in persuit of mineral samples, hoppers, pack walls etc

Some posters are trying to cloud the issue with semantics, you know who you are. Congratulations you have achieved nothing.
We all know the difference between maintaining access and pulling mines to bits to reach mineral samples. Even if you do try to use it as an argument, its not valid and you know it.

Some of have at least agreed that it is better to leave a mine in good condition than to destroy parts of it. I suppose thats something at least.

To those who think it reasonable and justified to damage the fabric of any mine, take care what you are pulling down doesn't land on you (yes it has happened). I would be so upset to hear of it happening again ::)

Good point too Vanoord..... NAMHO's guidelines DO permit Mineral Collecting!!!
Take it you disapprove??? :angel:

I don't quite get this - people are talking about collapsing hoppers for specimens... Umm... there arent very many specimens in shale filled hoppers guys. Where the flippin eck did you get the idea that I, or anyone else vaguely sane, would go willingly down a mine and bring the place down around his ears for a pile of shale. Please get your facts right before going off half arsed making unfounded and inflammatory accusations....

🙂

Not much shale in Carrock mate, where the hoppers have been pulled down by less scrupulous commercial mineral collectors (see not an insult in sight), these kind of collectors being the ones that my original s**m 'description' was aimed at & that most people on here seem to agree have little place in the mine exploring or mineral collecting communities 😉

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:sigh:

We're not getting very far, are we? :)

Destruction of the fabric of a mine is what I dislike, pure and simple. My personal opinion is that any 'user' of a mine should leave it for future visitors to enjoy - and that they should leave it pretty much as they find it.

We can go round in circles discussing the exact semantics, but to be honest, I've got better things to do.

Good point too Vanoord..... NAMHO's guidelines DO permit Mineral Collecting!!!
Take it you disapprove??? :angel:

Interesting that NAHMO's guidelines expressly forbid mineral collecting for commercial gain, isn't it? 😉

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Good point too Vanoord..... NAMHO's guidelines DO permit Mineral Collecting!!!
Take it you disapprove???

The specifically preclude collecting for profit...

NEVER collect for commercial gain

...is umabiguous.

Please don't try clouding the issue by talk of situations where a mine is operated solely for extraction of samples for sale or where removal of agreed quantities have been negotiated. That is not the issue here. Nor is the issue the private mineralogist. It is the issue of mineral dealers hiding behind the label of mineral collector and being deliberately provocative in a childish attempt to drag this web site into an argument.

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15. Collect enough specimens for your own needs only and NEVER collect for commercial gain.

I would be interested in a definition of "for your own needs".

What do individual people "need" from the specimens they collect, whether artefacts or minerals?

I feel quite good now, which isn't usual.... no-one can claim that a miner employed by the owners has no place in a mine :thumbsup: .. even my ( rather large ) wheal jane sample came out in a scooptram, or at least a bucket which was being sent up for welding......

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I feel quite good now, which isn't usual.... no-one can claim that a miner employed by the owners has no place in a mine :thumbsup:

Indeed - the best place for miners is in mines! 😉

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I feel quite good now, which isn't usual.... no-one can claim that a miner employed by the owners has no place in a mine :thumbsup:

:lol:

I think it's safe to say the work of a mining contractor in a working mine isn't what this topic is about! Worry not :thumbsup:

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