Manxman
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16 years ago
Some years ago whilst on a mining weekend in the Lake District, I bought a couple of old mining share certificates at a charity auction held in an hotel near Keswick. I was told that although the certificates were genuine, one of the mines did not exist and that it was part of a 19th century scam to obtain money under false pretences from would-be mine adventurers .
The two mines and the dates on the certificates were Tregontrees and Old Polgooth Consols (1883), which must be Cornwall and Mellingloch Lead Mine (1871), in all probability, Wales.
I have long since forgotten which one is real (big senior moment), so, does anyone know which of these two mines is a figment of someone's imagination?

Tezarchaeon
16 years ago
The Polgooth one sounds pretty real to me, not sure on the other though.
carnkie
16 years ago
The former was definately real. There are some general papers regarding it in the CRO.

STA/265

Tregontrees and Old Polgooth Consols, St Austell

1885-1886

Unless of course these papers were part of the scam.
The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.
carnkie
16 years ago
Arx, R. von "The brief life of Mellingloch lead mine" British Mining, No.41 (1990), pp.37-40.

Edit.
It's in the DB but spelt Melinygloch. It contains a PDF of a share certificate.
The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.
Manxman
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16 years ago
Site of a couple of trials and shaft for lead. One level open, the other run in and possibly used as a water supply. Shaft back filled (shown location by landowner). A site of a scam whereby the miner's purchased lead ore from the Van mine to "salt" the workings.

The above has been copied from the DB entry as posted by 'wyn' earlier this year - so it looks like this mine has a murky past involving attempts to make it appear richer than it actually was, hence the share "issue".

..... The plot thickens:- the share that I bought is numbered 599 and was sold to the same lady from Newtown, Montgomeryshire on the same date in 1871 whose share number 536 is on the PDF in the Mellingloch Archive Album.
royfellows
16 years ago
Tregontrees and Old Polgooth Consols (1883)

Worked by the notorious Joseph Fell who was responsible for the Cambrian Mining Company scam at Esgair Fraith. (central Wales) This was possibly one of the greatest frauds of the 19th Century, yet Fell never spent a day in jail in his life.

This clearly demonstates the shear gall of the man. In 1886 addressing a meeting of shareholders of the Polgooth mine:
"My father was born at Polgooth some 98 years ago, and I as a child, often heard him speak of the great riches produced by the old bal"

His father was a servant at Pitchford Hall in Shropshire where Fell was born, later servant of a Chelsea pawnbroker and finally a door lackey at the Bank of England, the lying toad.

The fraud at Mellingloch, with which Fell had nothing to do whatsoever, pales into insignificance compared to the activities of Fell in central Wales and at Polgooth.

I am thinking that if the share certificates were originally purchased by the same person, they must have had a remarkably poor business sense.

Any chance of you uploading copies?
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Manxman
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16 years ago
Tricky, they're both hanging in expensive frames & I would be reluctant to start taking them apart.

Does this mean that both shares are bogus??
royfellows
16 years ago
It doesn't mean that the shares are (were) bogus, just possibly worthless, dependant on when they were bought and sold. The 19th century scams were rather like a pyramid sell, if you purchased shares at company formation and knew when to sell, (insider information) you could clean up. It was the poor dupes who bought in on the basis of outrageous promotional reports.

Often, the ‘consultants’ would basically be playing whatever tunes the people paying them wanted, typical were the Francis family, Matthew and Absalom being possibly the worse. Sometimes, the reports would be written by people directly employed by the fraudulent company. For example, Thomas Glanville was a Cornishman who moved to Wales as an opportunist when Mathew Francis died in 1869. He was a captain at the Pen’Allt mine near Nantlle Vale, which was an outright fraud, and later captain at one of Fells companies formed to work the Talybont mine. Here at one point he reported on an entirely fictitious new lode on land where the company did not even have mineral rights, it was on dead rent for operating the dressing floors.
At that time, the directors of the company, which included Fell and his associates R B Fastnedge and Edward Hilton, (also Cambrian directors) decided to increase the share capital accompanied by outrageous reports from Glanville and even letters from possibly fictitious authors in the Mining Journal.

So here, we have a situation whereby the share value would peak, and anyone who was on the inside of the fraud, would know that this was the time to sell.

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royfellows
16 years ago
'Bogus' share certificates.
I thought that I had better come back on this.
There was the famous Mayne fraud at Dolcoath where a junior clerk named Mayne, no relation of the director of the same name, issued share certificates in the prosperous company on his own account. When discovered, the company decided to honour the certificates. Mayne (the clerk) got 10 years.
These were truly “bogus” certificates.

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Knocker
16 years ago
Roy, am I correct in believing the Clerk was a realtion to the then Mine Captain Josiah Thomas? Not that it had anything to do with him.
Manxman
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16 years ago
Poor choice of words on my part, I'm afraid - you are right, 'worthless' is indeed a better description. However, I'm amazed that the Mellingloch share certificates are still in circulation and that one of the others in the same batch as mine has turned up on this site.
Thanks RF for all that information - in the light of the current financial mess, the world hasn't changed that much really.
royfellows
16 years ago
"Knocker" wrote:

Roy, am I correct in believing the Clerk was a realtion to the then Mine Captain Josiah Thomas? Not that it had anything to do with him.



I believe that you correct on both counts.
He was a cousin of Capt Thomas and his position was that of 'Confidential clerk' which gave him access to material such as blank share certificates. He forged 203 of them and sold them on his own account.
The matter is covered in much detail in the Mining Journal August 11 1883 pages 927 and 938 for the benefit of anyone who wants to research this.

The other 'John Mayne' was a director of several Cornish mining companies and nothing to do with the swindler at all. The name similarity has caused some confusion in the past with the swindler being incorrectly described as a director by some.
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JohnnearCfon
16 years ago
I have just found this on ebay

PROSPECTORS WANTED!!
CENTRAL ARIZONA MINING CLAIM!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320325450977&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:GB:1123 

Somehow this seemed the most appropriate thread to put it on! Just goes to prove nothing changes!

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