AR
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5 years ago
Unfortunately not, rust generally comes off in small scales from all sorts of iron. The wood-grain effect you see on wrought iron comes from enhanced corrosion around the minute strings of slag within it; these slag strings are absent from a cast steel. The only way to be 100% sure is to cut a sample out, polish and etch it then examine it under a microscope...
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royfellows
5 years ago
Clean metal can made to 'show' by the application of a swap soaked in vinegar. A good way to examine the hamon of a katana, to see how the two metals have been worked together on a traditionally made sword.
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D.Send
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5 years ago
Hi,
Damascene swords are made by hammering a blade to twice its length, covering it with carbon dust, and folding it back onto itself, and hammering it again to weld the two sheets together. This means the soft (0.5% carbon) iron cores are interleaved with hard (5.0% carbon) case-hardened layers.
The process is repeated, so 2 folds give 4 layers, 6 folds give 64 layers etc, so a Samurai sword with 10 folds gave 1024 layers, the equivalent of a 2048-layer sandwich of hard and flexible steels !
The carbon is present in iron carbide forms, Austenite, Martensite, Perlite etc, whose proportions and molecular sizes depend on the temperature attained and quenching.
Cast iron is totally fragile, so all iron used has been wrought, whether through the ancient 'direct' process' or post 15th C
'indirect process'.

Finch Foundry tools were made by hammer-welding just one hard steel sheet between two soft steel ones.... a much faster process, and so cheaper ! Their mining implements were widely used across the south-west of England, and exported further afield. Used tools were returned for recycling...

D.Send.
AR
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5 years ago
"D.Send" wrote:

Hi,
Damascene swords are made by hammering a blade to twice its length, covering it with carbon dust, and folding it back onto itself, and hammering it again to weld the two sheets together. This means the soft (0.5% carbon) iron cores are interleaved with hard (5.0% carbon) case-hardened layers.
The process is repeated, so 2 folds give 4 layers, 6 folds give 64 layers etc, so a Samurai sword with 10 folds gave 1024 layers, the equivalent of a 2048-layer sandwich of hard and flexible steels !
The carbon is present in iron carbide forms, Austenite, Martensite, Perlite etc, whose proportions and molecular sizes depend on the temperature attained and quenching.
Cast iron is totally fragile, so all iron used has been wrought, whether through the ancient 'direct' process' or post 15th C
'indirect process'.



Sorry, but the above is not accurate. Firstly, the metallurgy of iron and its carbon alloys. Carbon is virtually insoluble (about 0.02%) in Ferrite, the form in which iron exists at room temperature. Any carbon above that 0.02% will form Cementite (Iron Carbide) which will form in layers alternating with Ferrite, this is known as Pearlite. At higher temperatures, the crystal structure of iron changes to the form known as Austenite and carbon can dissolve in it more readily; the temperature at which this happens starts at 911 degrees C for pure iron, down to 723 degrees C for 0.8% carbon and above. The quenching process locks the iron into its high-temperature form, and in this state it is known as Martensite - extremely hard but also extremely brittle. By reheating in the tempering process, enough of the Martensite is allowed to change back to the Ferrite crystal structure to make it more resilient but retain enough hardness to be useful.

The range of carbon content that will give you a usable steel for cutting edges is about 0.4-0.5% up to 1-1.2%; below that and it's too soft for a good edge, above that and it's too brittle (I'm not counting modern alloy steels here where other metals have been introduced into the mix, some of those can have higher carbon contents). Wrought iron for general smithing work usually contains less that 0.1% carbon
Beyond about 2% carbon, you're into the realms of cast iron - at a little over 4%, you get the lowest possible melting point for iron (~1150 degrees C) hence the preferred composition for casting as you don't need to put as much heat in, but the resulting iron is brittle. From the 17th century onwards, wrought iron was increasingly made by the puddling process, which involves blowing air through molten cast iron while moving it around with iron rods; the carbon gets burnt out and the largely carbon-free iron accumulates on the rod until there's enough to remove and forge out into bar form. There will be residual strings of slag left in the finished iron, hence the corrosion effects I've referred to earlier in this thread.

Turning to the process of making a laminated steel, commonly but incorrectly called Damascus, this historically tended to be done with lower carbon content irons, the good stuff above 0.5% carbon being put aside for cutting edges. How this higher grade steel was made varies from place to place and through time; some might be created naturally during the bloomery smelting process (as is the case in traditional Japanese smelting) or manufactured by heating bars of wrought iron surrounded by powdered charcoal in sealed containers for several hours. You can create a very thin layer of steel on hot iron by sprinkling powdered carbon on it (case hardening) but not one that will survive much grinding and sharpening.

The lamination is usually done in one of two ways. The Japanese technique involves making a piled block of low and medium-carbon steel, forge-welding it together, then almost cutting it in half, folding it over and forge-welding it back to itself, and repeating several times. Only when the swordsmith feels there are enough layers does he forge the block out to sword length, then weld the cutting edge of good steel on. The technique that evolved in Northern Europe, known as pattern-welding, involved making up rods of between 3 and 9 layers of irons of differing composition, forge-welding the together, then twisting them. The twisted rods would be forged back to square and welded together to form the sword core, then the cutting edge(s) of good steel welded on.

True Damascus steel as used in the near and middle east for swordmaking, as I’ve mentioned earlier is a different beast. It’s a high-carbon (1 to 1.2%) steel called Wootz that was made in parts of India by remelting bloomery iron in sealed crucibles with charcoal, but crucially there were minute traces of some other metals like vanadium in the original iron that caused some interesting crystallisation effects. The swordsmiths of Damascus and other blademaking centres in the Muslim world discovered that this steel, when carefully forged, could produce subtle “watered silk” patterns when polished and etched, as well as taking a seriously sharp edge! There is also some evidence to suggest that there was a European technique of producing high-quality steel by oxidising molten cast iron, but it seems to have been a closely guarded secret that died out in the middle ages, and cast steel did not reappear until Huntsman perfected the crucible steel process in the late 18th century.

All of this is going way off-topic, however….
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royfellows
5 years ago
Way off topic maybe, but extremely knowledgeable and interesting posting AR.
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AR
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5 years ago
The years spent studying archaeometallurgy and learning blacksmithing were good for something! I have made pattern-welded billets in the past but I'm too out of practice with forge welding to do it these days - one of the hardest things to do as a smith is weld steel on to iron without the steel turning into a sparkler...
Follow the horses, Johnny my laddie, follow the horses canny lad-oh!
royfellows
5 years ago
On my wanderings, I tend to pick things up which others have discarded. Some years ago I found part of a farm implement, a sort of rod with a wheel thingy on the end.
It lay around for ages until I found a use for it, but without the wheel.
I took a 2500 watt angle gutter to it, with little impression. I stuck at it and eventually managed to get almost through it. I finished the break by bending in the vise.
I was fascinated to see all of the lamination's exposed, obviously wrought iron. It was a wake up after working with mild steel, I have cut an 8 inch RSJ with the same tool.
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D.Send
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5 years ago
Hi A.R,

Many thanks for detailing the Damascene and Samurai processes.

Understanding these complicated techniques helps to underline the very clever method used at Finch Foundry to produce cheap 3-layer 'sandwiched' mining implements, the point I was making.

Mining without good tools would have meant constant halts for resharpening blunted edges... a real bane !

Best Wishes,
D.Send.
D.Send
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5 years ago
Hi A.R,

Many thanks for detailing the Damascene and Samurai processes.

Understanding these complicated techniques helps to underline the very clever method used at Finch Foundry to produce cheap 3-layer 'sandwiched' mining implements, the point I was making.

Mining without good tools would have meant constant halts for resharpening blunted edges... a real bane !

Best Wishes,
D.Send.
royfellows
5 years ago
Short and sweet, 90% or thereabouts of currently produced samurai swords are manufactured in China, should answer some questions.
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ttxela
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5 years ago
Somewhere in my loft is something that was described to me as an 'Indian Cavalry Talwar' when I picked it up at a trade fair in Birmingham many years ago. I was told the blade is something called 'watered steel' which I wonder is something similar to that referred to by AR? The blade is quite crudely shaped but seems very strong for how thin it is.
ttxela
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5 years ago
"royfellows" wrote:

Clean metal can made to 'show' by the application of a swap soaked in vinegar. A good way to examine the hamon of a katana, to see how the two metals have been worked together on a traditionally made sword.



When I did my C&G welding course I had to cut through each weld and take it to the supervisor chap who would paint it with some 'stuff' and you could then see if the weld had penetrated correctly. If not then back to the bench for another go you went! :lol:
sinker
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5 years ago
"ttxela" wrote:



When I did my C&G welding course I had to cut through each weld and take it to the supervisor chap who would paint it with some 'stuff' and you could then see if the weld had penetrated correctly. If not then back to the bench for another go you went! :lol:




:offtopic:.....

When I did my welding course the tutor said:
"You're all being assessed next week on each type of weld. Keep your one best piece of each type of weld to one side and throw the rest in the scrap skip for recycling"

There was an old boy on the course who was all fingers and thumbs and couldn't weld anything without blowing a hole in it or getting splatter all over the place or setting his gloves on fire. He started clearing his bench and the tutor yelled at him....
"Not you...! Don't throw ANYTHING away!!"

:lol:




Yma O Hyd....
rufenig
5 years ago
The "stuff" to show iron / steel grain structure is
Nital. 5% nitric acid in alcohol (usually methanol) :smartass:
neutronix
5 years ago
When we looked at the high temperature phase transitions in a martensitic steel using neutron diffraction and dilatometry, the metallurgist used sodium picrate as an etch for reflected light microscopy. Can upload the paper if anyone is interested (and I'm pretty sure no-one is ;D).

Shame I didn't find the tools a few years ago; it would have made an interesting experiment to carry out phase analysis non-destructively and too look at the positional variation of residual stress in the hammer head.
“There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact." Mark Twain
ttxela
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5 years ago
"sinker" wrote:



There was an old boy on the course who was all fingers and thumbs and couldn't weld anything without blowing a hole in it or getting splatter all over the place or setting his gloves on fire. He started clearing his bench and the tutor yelled at him....
"Not you...! Don't throw ANYTHING away!!"

:lol:





you mean your gloves aren't meant to be on fire? :confused:

He should have rooted through the bin to get the top of the classes second best bits :lol:
Tamarmole
5 years ago
"ttxela" wrote:

"royfellows" wrote:

Clean metal can made to 'show' by the application of a swap soaked in vinegar. A good way to examine the hamon of a katana, to see how the two metals have been worked together on a traditionally made sword.



When I did my C&G welding course I had to cut through each weld and take it to the supervisor chap who would paint it with some 'stuff' and you could then see if the weld had penetrated correctly. If not then back to the bench for another go you went! :lol:




Apropos of nothing. My welding tutor made me spend several weeks welding up the bucket on his tractor, apparently this was my assessment. I later found out that he did stuff like this regularly on courses - he could claim he was teaching and also got his stuff fixed for free!
AR
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5 years ago
There's a wide range of etchants that potentially can be used on metals - nital is the most common, ferric chloride is another one but many acids will reveal differences on a polished metal surface. With iron and steel, steels tend to be darker when etched, though differences in heat treatment will also be revealed - the hamon of a katana is produced by coating the back in fine liquid clay before quenching and putting a pattern into the edge of that coating that will be visible on the polished blade.

Alex - suggest you try polishing a section of your sword through successively finer wet and dry paper, then swab it with vinegar and see if any sort of patterning emerges.

I did lots of chop and polish tests on my welds when I was at Hereford college on the blacksmithing couse, also later doing a part-time TIG welding course. Wish I'd been able to keep in practice with that but I don't have the kit, or for that matter the time these days:(
Follow the horses, Johnny my laddie, follow the horses canny lad-oh!
royfellows
5 years ago
With the thread wondering regularly into samurai swords, a word of warning.

If you get to handle one, they are potentially the most dangerous thing you will ever hold. They have a history of accidents disproportionate to the number in circulation. Some accidents have resulted in hideous injuries, sometimes caused in the most bizarre and unexpected ways.

Persons attempting to make a cut have had the blades leave the tsuka (handle) or misjudged the cutting ability when applied to a tyre suspended from a tree. (severed leg).
Antiques hundreds of years old should not be used in this way.
Pre Edo period swords were made in quantity before quality as it was a time of constant war. There is a brass habaki (collar) just in front of the tsuba (round hand guard) which grips the saya (scabbard). So consider steel in constant contact with an electrolytic dissimilar metal for hundreds of years.
Modern cheap Chinese jobs are actually stampings fitted with plastic of all things - furniture

Just beware!
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