speculator
5 years ago
The only mining/quarrying in Rugby is the cement works. My own suspicion is, as you suggest, is that the pick is railway related. The handle it came with was an improvised very battered piece of ash giving no clues. Whatever, still fun artefacts.
inbye
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5 years ago
"speculator" wrote:

The hammer head is so mushroomed and the claw so curled that I don't think any steel was ever involved. My feeling is that it was made from recycled iron in the days when that was common practice and I would love to see a modern smith make one from scratch.



Quite correct about the use of recycled iron. Nowadays, people look at a blacksmiths anvil and think that's how it always looked. In fact an anvil could be made up of half a dozen different pieces, all forge welded together.
Imagine the heat given off by a 400 lb anvil at welding temperature, a team of up to eight strikers would have to quickly "nip in" and deliver a sledgehammer blow, to keep the exposure to the heat to a minimum.


Regards, John...

Huddersfield, best value for money in the country, spend a day there & it'll feel like a week........
neutronix
5 years ago
Picked these three up (no pun intended) at a local auction in Truro for £5. I hope someone from Cornwall can identify them and what they were used for as they are so different in form and size.

Many thanks (in anticipation)

🔗121029[linkphoto]121029[/linkphoto][/link]
🔗121028[linkphoto]121028[/linkphoto][/link]

“There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact." Mark Twain
quimbyj1745
5 years ago
this tool is known as a noper in south derbyshire. mainly used by doggies in laying railtrack.
Tamarmole
5 years ago
Poll picks.

The Cornish miners universal tool
royfellows
5 years ago
Rick, you probably know about this.
Older wrought iron tools.
How old?
Wrought from original ore without reaching molten state or otherwise?
Single metal, or a different carbon content metal 'worked in' for the tip?

You can guess where I am coming from or thinking about, just wondering if this 'art' is to be found in other areas. Please forgive my ignorance.
My avatar is a poor likeness.
Tamarmole
5 years ago
"royfellows" wrote:

Rick, you probably know about this.
Older wrought iron tools.
How old?
Wrought from original ore without reaching molten state or otherwise?
Single metal, or a different carbon content metal 'worked in' for the tip?

You can guess where I am coming from or thinking about, just wondering if this 'art' is to be found in other areas. Please forgive my ignorance.



Not sure when the use of wrought iron became widespread.

Until the end of the 18th century wrought iron was smelted from ore by the bloomery process, typically using charcoal. Latterly wrought iron was produced in a reverbatory furnace by the puddling process.

Wrought iron was supplied to smiths in the form of bar iron. They would then forge tools from the wrought iron. I have seen wrought tools (mainly bars) with steel tips fire welded on. However in the case of tools like poll picks the pick end would be heated up to the appropriate temperature and quenched to harden it (the smith would know this from the colour of the hot metal had turned - if memory serves the metal needs to be straw yellow for cutting rock).
D.Send
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5 years ago
Hi,
Finch Foundry, (Sticklepath village, near Okehampton, Devon), forged a wide range of Mining and other tools, which were widely distributed by them. The National Trust manage the site, where you can still see the catalogues of all the implements. They were made by trip-hammering a hard steel sheet between two softer iron ones, to produce a hard-wearing, yet flexible tool.
The Founders were Quakers, which reveals the age their tools may have.
I do not have a full copy of the catalogues here, but they may be worth consulting...

D.Send.
rufenig
5 years ago
"Tamarmole" wrote:

"royfellows" wrote:

if memory serves the metal needs to be straw yellow for cutting rock).



To be technical, that is the tempering stage.
The item will be heater to "red hot" the tempreture of which is judged by the colour in a dark-ish room. "Cherry red" is an often used description of the colour required. This depends on the steel, and is judged by the smith. The item is then quenched into (usually) water.
This leaves a very hard, but brittle item. The item will then be cleaned to bright metal.
The final stage is to carefully heat the item again to probably a straw yellow colour and allow it to cool.
This reduces the hardness but increases the toughness.

In some mines (Snailbeach in Shropshire as an example.) It was the practice for the miners to pay a blacksmith to sharpen their tools.
The skill is to make tools hard enough that they will not wear and blunt quickly, but not too hard that they chip or break. :smartass:
neutronix
5 years ago
Many thanks for all the replies, most interesting. I guess I am still intrigued by their different lengths, widths and apparently differing pick ends (sharp or broad). Does this mean they would have specific applications?
“There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact." Mark Twain
inbye
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5 years ago
The skilled Smith would often combine the processes of quenching, hardening, tempering.
In the case of, say, a chisel or pick point, the metal would be brought to red heat, water quenched along only part of its length, quickly brightened at the tip and then the colour changes observed using the residual heat from further up the blade. The whole tool would then be quenched, making for a speedy process.


Regards, John...

Huddersfield, best value for money in the country, spend a day there & it'll feel like a week........
royfellows
5 years ago
"D.Send" wrote:

Hi,
Finch Foundry, (Sticklepath village, near Okehampton, Devon), forged a wide range of Mining and other tools, which were widely distributed by them. The National Trust manage the site, where you can still see the catalogues of all the implements. They were made by trip-hammering a hard steel sheet between two softer iron ones, to produce a hard-wearing, yet flexible tool.
The Founders were Quakers, which reveals the age their tools may have.
I do not have a full copy of the catalogues here, but they may be worth consulting...

D.Send.



Exactly what I was wondering about, yes, same art as the making of the Samurai sword. This art was likely perfected in the period 1192 -1333.
For anyone who wants to pursue this there is an excellent video on YouTube showing the process from start to finish. I am not going to divert the thread, but thanks for answering my question.
My avatar is a poor likeness.
legendrider
5 years ago
"royfellows wrote:

same art as the making of the Samurai sword.



mmm... 1000-layer Damascus pick. Now THAT would be a digging tool!

MARK
festina lente[i]
royfellows
5 years ago
Yes. The master swordsmith would produce about 3 or 4 a year.
My avatar is a poor likeness.
legendrider
5 years ago
It will dig.... :thumbup:

M
festina lente[i]
AR
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5 years ago
Looking at those tools, I'd say they aren't wrought iron - there's a definite lack of "wood-grain" corrosion on them which is characteristic of wrought. More likely that they're a medium carbon steel, from either the Bessemer or the Siemens process, though they do look hand-forged. I think the bottom one may be a small adze?

A thousand-layer damascened pick might look flashy but it won't cut any better or keep its sharpness any better than standard steel, potentially not as well if it's been made from softer steels. Remember that what makes the katana such a superb cutting blade is the high-quality steel welded onto the patterned back and then expertly quenched and tempered.

Going off at a further tangent, true Damascus steel is a very different beast - it was a cast high-carbon steel with some interesting trace elements in it that produced subtle patterning after forging and polishing.
Follow the horses, Johnny my laddie, follow the horses canny lad-oh!
Roy Morton
5 years ago
Originally Poll Picks were mostly made on the mine at the smith's shop and styles did vary from mine to mine dependent on the type of rock that was being worked.
The general pattern was the same ie sharp point at one end and a hammer head on the other, but a large headed pick was no good for working tight narrow veins, but performed well where room was plentiful and good for trimming / slashing out.
The angle of the 'beak' tended to vary also.
"You Chinese think of everything!"
"But I''m not Chinese!"
"Then you must have forgotten something!"
pwhole
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5 years ago
We think this one was an original wrought iron model, excavated from the shaft spoil in Longcliffe Mine:

🔗107728[linkphoto]107728[/linkphoto][/link]
royfellows
5 years ago
"AR" wrote:



A thousand-layer damascened pick might look flashy but it won't cut any better or keep its sharpness any better than standard steel, potentially not as well if it's been made from softer steels. Remember that what makes the katana such a superb cutting blade is the high-quality steel welded onto the patterned back and then expertly quenched and tempered.



I would say nail on the head.
The manufacture of a Samurai sword by true traditional means, the 1000 folds and all that, basically relates to the fact that at no time from raw ore to finished product does the metal reach a molten state. So its mainly a process of refinement. Its secret is in its 'bi metal' construction and selective quenching whereby one part will be coated with clay so that only the exposed part is being quenched.

Without taking thread off at a tangent I have to add that not all swords in the past have been manufactured this way. WW2 officers swords, typically manufactured by The National Railway Company were a single metal.
My avatar is a poor likeness.
neutronix
5 years ago
The smallest has seen some heavy use, at least at the hammer end, where the surface has mushroomed over. The larger two have little evidence of use, both pick ends are sharp. There was a little corrosion, and what was present spalled off in small scales. Does this give any help on identifying the nature of the metallurgy?
“There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact." Mark Twain

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