jagman
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16 years ago
"Vanoord" wrote:

I suspect, Mr.Jagman, that you're correct! 😉

It would make sense for the battery packs to contain the same amount of electricity, if only to not confuse folk who are using both types of battery.



I know 😮 I'm a smartarse too

http://www.enersys-hawker.com/pdf/mining/data/DL16%20safety%20lamp%20datasheet_gb.pdf 

Enersys spec sheet for the DL16
Battery working capacity to 3.7 volts 16ah
royfellows
16 years ago
Question for you oldham experts

If Oldham are so good, why do they manufacture/sell/rebrand* the MF?

* Delete as you personally feel appropriate
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Vanoord
16 years ago
From the second link, this little gem:

Quote:

By using the nickel headpiece as the heat sink for the light source, the D-type lamp is fitted with a 3-Watt side-emitting power LED that operates at a genuine 3 watts. The light from this source is focussed by a unique duo-reflector that gives a spot of 5000 lumens at 1 metre and 10 Cd over 120 degrees, surpassing performance levels of all competitor LED powered lamps.



Presumably this is lux at 1m rather than lumens?! Otherwise it's a truly incredible output from a 3W emitter...

This seems comparable to the Fenix T1, which makes sense. From the following http://edcforums.com/index.php?topic=14255.msg173110  which gives output for various Q5 torches:

Quote:

TrustFire T1 Q5 18650 - 3380 lux @ 1 meter

Hunt Light FT01 1st Gen, BOG Q5, 2 RCR123's - 3750 lux @ 1 meter

Hunt Light FT01 1st Gen, BOG Q5 18650 - 2960 lux @ 1 meter

Fenix T1 Q5 OP 2 RCR123's - 5950 lux @ 1 meter

Hello again darkness, my old friend...
jagman
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16 years ago
"royfellows" wrote:

Question for you oldham experts

If Oldham are so good, why do they manufacture/sell/rebrand* the MF?

* Delete as you personally feel appropriate




Ahhhh now thats a can of worms, I presume you are reffering to the blue gel-acid types? Originally Exide I think? If you buy an Oldham MF now you get a G series lamp with a a T6 maintenance free battery.
As I understand it the MF is/was South African manufactured and spec'd
Enersys-Hawker own both hence the cross branding.
At least I think thats the story!!!
royfellows
16 years ago
"Vanoord" wrote:

From the second link, this little gem:

Quote:

By using the nickel headpiece as the heat sink for the light source, the D-type lamp is fitted with a 3-Watt side-emitting power LED that operates at a genuine 3 watts. The light from this source is focussed by a unique duo-reflector that gives a spot of 5000 lumens at 1 metre and 10 Cd over 120 degrees, surpassing performance levels of all competitor LED powered lamps.



Logic dictatates that, well putting it bluntly, its total tosh.

5 Fellows lamps. its also an insult!

Seriously, though, lux are often confused with lumens, of course an unscrupilous salesman or adman could want to be confused if you get the drift.

Deliberate typos?
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royfellows
16 years ago
"jagman" wrote:

"royfellows" wrote:

Question for you oldham experts

If Oldham are so good, why do they manufacture/sell/rebrand* the MF?

* Delete as you personally feel appropriate




Ahhhh now thats a can of worms, I presume you are reffering to the blue gel-acid types? Originally Exide I think? If you buy an Oldham MF now you get a G series lamp with a a T6 maintenance free battery.
As I understand it the MF is/was South African manufactured and spec'd

Enersys-Hawker own both hence the cross branding.
At least I think thats the story!!!




I believe Sir, that you are correct.
Except that they are not acid gel, but ordinary wet lead acid. I bought a batch of them for conversion and have taken a battery apart. The case is ABS or PVC for start, the top is very badly solvent welded in, when taken apart it was found to be almost dry. The dismantling involved a 'special tool' in the form of a half inch chisel which easily forced the top off. I have a logical explanation for the battery being dry, in that the acid has probably all leaked out.

I wonder how these passed 'certification', me suspects a lot of certification is basically pay-and-display.
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jagman
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16 years ago
"royfellows" wrote:


I believe Sir, that you are correct.
Except that they are not acid gel, but ordinary wet lead acid. I bought a batch of them for conversion and have taken a battery appart. The case is ABS or PVC for start, the top is very badly solvent welded in, when taken appart it was found to be almost dry. The dismantling involved a 'special tool' in the form of a half inch chisel which easily forced the top off. I have a logical explanation for the battery being dry, in that the acid has probably all leaked out.

I wonder how these passed 'certification', me suspects a lot of certification is basically pay-and-display.



I believe the MF's were certified in South Africa, not here.
I also believe that the factory was an Exide factory and the only link to Oldham was/is a common owner
Funnily enough, I have one of these batteries, had it for years. Still wors perfectly well but for some reason I'm not keen to trust it underground.

As for the certification, when I bought the D Series LED Oldham head unit they were just finsihing the certification process. I know they jumped through an awful lot of hoops to get it properly certified. I suspect passing the set standards may be a little negotiable according to geography.
Do the South African or Chinese lamps get tested to the same level as Oldham manufactured lamps? I suspect not.
royfellows
16 years ago
By the way, re MFs
If anyone breaks a plastic battery top, I have loads of these things.
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Miles
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16 years ago
"Vanoord" wrote:

I suspect, Mr.Jagman, that you're correct! 😉



I suspect you would, but you're no less wrong.

OK - well Caving Supplies tell me the T6 is 24ah, and my own unit tests to 24ah. Maybe they've brought them down again, who knows.

As for the lithium battery issue, your argument is comical :D

The 16ah is not quoted for the discharge band between 4.2 and 3.7 volts. That's tosh.

Where you are getting confused is that it's rated to provide 12 hours of light before it drops below 3.6 (read the PDF you sent me). This is entirely different. The head draws 0.75 amps, and it will take 12 hours to drop to below 3.6, which sums up fine. When you work that out, it's used 9ah of the total 16ah to drop to 3.6, with the remaining 7ah droping to 2.7 where the battery will cut off the current to prevent an explosion.

This is simple physics and I can't be bothered arguing about batteries any more if you amazingly still conclude this is wrong :lol:
derrickman
16 years ago
I treat these matters on a DKDC basis.... as long as it works, that's all I care
''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change .... oh, I don't know, I've still got a lamp like that.
royfellows
16 years ago
The arguments on here are starting to get a bit sharp which is not to my liking.

Anyway, as I use exclusively Li Ion batteries for my lamps I am more than tempted to test one to destruction, or possibly 2, and provide photographs of the results, whichever way it goes.

I could charge one of a pair at say 12 volts, outside of course, and see what happens. I rather suspect that it would get very hot and split open, the idea of actually “exploding” appears rather dramatic. Of course, if I am wrong, I could change over to Ni MH and sell my remaining stocks at Al Quada.

I could also take one without any protection circuit and discharge it completely and see what happens. Again, we are talking about a battery not a block of C4 or an FG, so I rather suspect that it would become simply useless.

For the cost involved, I am seriously considering this, I bet you all would not be able to wait for the results!
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Miles
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16 years ago
"royfellows" wrote:

The arguments on here are starting to get a bit sharp which is not to my liking.



Not true, I'm just trying to explain how li-ion batteries work :angel:

Anyways, you're all correct, there is more to life than batteries, and I'm sure we've all got far more important things to worry about. I shall now unsubscribe from this thread and then won't feel the need to come back and correct people 🙂
derrickman
16 years ago
I know the first answer, on my last trip offshore some woodentop overcharged a Li ion battery ( from a subsea acoustic beacon as it happens, but comparable to an Oldham one ) using a 12v car battery charger, and it got VERY hot, fizzed a bit and the casing split down one seam.
''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change .... oh, I don't know, I've still got a lamp like that.
Miles
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16 years ago
Before I go roy:



Here is a video of an 18ah lithium ion battery getting overcharged. Only slightly larger than the oldham.

You want to mess with overcharging one of these in your house, or run one from a lead-acid charger, be my guest 😃
royfellows
16 years ago
"derrickman" wrote:

I know the first answer, on my last trip offshore some woodentop overcharged a Li ion battery ( from a subsea acoustic beacon as it happens, but comparable to an Oldham one ) using a 12v car battery charger, and it got VERY hot, fizzed a bit and the casing split down one seam.



This is exactly what I would expect, the most accurate description being "burst" rather than "explode".

To tell you the truth, I was expecting someone to post a link to something on the Internet in the vein of " 3 killed by exploding battery" or similar.
We have been fed a diet of every type of science fiction based scare from AIDS wiping out the worlds population through bird flu etc and your and my favourite of the lot " the Thames estuary will be a mosquito swamp by 2005"

I always loved that one.

Anyway, back on track, I have to have my bit of fun, does anyone know of a definite case of over discharge damage?

I am wondering if become hot and burst again or just rendered useless?
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derrickman
16 years ago
got away with it quite lightly, judging by that video 😮
''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change .... oh, I don't know, I've still got a lamp like that.
royfellows
16 years ago
"Miles" wrote:

Before I go roy:



Here is a video of an 18ah lithium ion battery getting overcharged. Only slightly larger than the oldham.

You want to mess with overcharging one of these in your house, or run one from a lead-acid charger, be my guest :D



Thanks for the link Miles, I watched 2 of these that were on there.

Neither was what I would call an "explosion", I can do explosions.

Film clip #1 What voltage was being applied through the battery, this could have a bearing on the 'roman candle' type pyrotechnics.

Film clip#2 This is what I would more reasonably expect.

If I wanted to put down Li Ion batteries and 'prove' it, I could put 5000 volts through one; this is the standard of the times. Like the advert "at 35 miles and hour" etc showing the Vauxhall Cavalier with the back brakes obviously disconnected, the advert obviously being there to justify the governments state orchestrated highway robbery of the motorist using cameras.

This kid doesn't miss a trick.


EDIT
And you have not really gone either; you are sitting there reading this now. Refer my last line above.
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derrickman
16 years ago
I see that Hitch and Hike are advertising a revised version of the Speleo Technics lamps - what batteries do these have?
''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change .... oh, I don't know, I've still got a lamp like that.
royfellows
16 years ago
"derrickman" wrote:

I see that Hitch and Hike are advertising a revised version of the Speleo Technics lamps - what batteries do these have?



Hitch and Hike?
Sorry Mr Derrickman I am not with one.
Anyway, its getting on bit, will have to log off and put some food on.
I dont have a otherhalf/SWMBO/hand brake/err indoors etc and have to look after myself.

Pick up on the posts tomorrow, goodnight.
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derrickman
16 years ago
H & H are an outdoor shop in the Hope area, been there a long while

anyway here's a link for Speleo Technics. I have seen these lights occasionally in odd locations, there are various marine applications for headlamps. Onshore contractors usually have oldhams or those big rubber Wolf torches.

http://www.speleo.co.uk/ 



http://www.hitchnhike.co.uk/acatalog/speleo_technics_caving_lamps.html 
''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change .... oh, I don't know, I've still got a lamp like that.
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