just been reading this..

http://www.iriscom.co.uk/m001/Lighting.htm 

interesting stuff. I take it that the 'Chinese' model referred to is the one sold as the 'Raptor' ? I have just bought one of these and I'm impressed with it, it's the usual story... Oldham have gone on making the same old heavyweight thing while someone else has beaten them to it with a modern design.

whether it has the same ruggedness as the Oldham remains to be seen, but it's a value-for-money product which does enough for most applications

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Hi Mr Derrickman

I believe that these lamps are similar except that the ones that Miles sells are probably better and cheaper.

I shall have to update those pages soon as they are now seriously out of date, what with the Raptor and the lamps that I will be producing.

However, my comments re Mr Mikes Retro 2 still hold good, its a reliable piece of kit.

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it's the usual story... Oldham have gone on making the same old heavyweight thing while someone else has beaten them to it with a modern design.

Oldham have had a LED / Li Ion lamp out for some time now. For sure the battery isn't as small as the Chinese versions (500g). But it is a lot smaller and lighter than the traditional lead acid batteries and it has the same rock solid construction as the rest of the Oldham range.



http://www.excellentstuff.co.uk/product.asp?strParents=&CAT_ID=&P_ID=172 

Unfortunately it is about twice the price of the Chinese versions and for that reason we don't see a great many!

Saw Roy's lamp for the first time a few weeks ago and was extermely impressed, and echo Roy's comments about Mr Mike's Retro 2 as a good value, reliable solution.

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I haven't seen the Li Oldham lamp, and didn't know about it. If it's up to their traditional standard, it will be good. I wouldn't worry about a bit of extra weight compared to the Raptor, I'm sure it is still much less than the old unit.

I am working at Combe Down and for some reason, all the lamps there are lead-acid ones.

I don't believe the Raptor is as rugged as the Oldham and if I were buying a serious caving/working lamp, rather than one for occasional easy caves/mines and work visits, I would start by looking at the Oldham. If it gave the service my old battery gave, and I have seen from innumerable Oldham headsets, it would be worth the extra.

I haven't so far seen the current LED conversions for Oldhams and can't comment on them

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I am working at Combe Down and for some reason, all the lamps there are lead-acid ones.

If ever they want to upgrade their lamps to the DL16 drop me a PM 😉 :angel:

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The Oldham DL16 is in a league of its own.
The Raptors are good, for the price. They are supposedly built to comply with the same standards but I don't believe any of the Chinese lamps have actually been submitted to the same level of testing. I know the Oldhams have been through the full approval testing whereas the Chinese lamps just add the appropriate numbers.
In truth the Chinese lamps are lighter and probably have a more even light output.
The Oldham batteries are bigger simply because they have a massive capacity.
If its durability and reliablity you are after then its the Oldham every time.
If you want a low budget caving lamp then the Raptor's are a good buy.

Me? I use a Rebel100 Sten and an Oldham DL16 combined 😉

The Raptor Pro seems to be the TJL (also, bizarrely, known as 'Happy Wong') model KL6L7M, probably a modification of the 'B' variant http://www.happywong.com/en/products_show.asp?id=148 .

There's quite an interesting topic on Caving Chat at this http://www.forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=8132  - it's got the following exchange between a forum user and a representative of the manufacturer:

xcathodex wrote: is there a planned model for Aboveground Caving?

caplamp wrote: at present we donnot manufacture that kinds of cap lamps

😮

From what I've read on Happy Wong's website, the KL6L7M / Raptor seems to be produced for the Chinese mining industry, so it should be able to take a fair bit of abuse.

I'm still a little unsure about the crossover between mining and caving lamps, in that while the requirements are similar, they're different. I must admit to having a preference for something designed specially for recreational underground use such as the Sten or Scurion.

As an aside, there's also a link from that thread to a pre-assembled reflector/emitter combination that might be of interest to anyone wanting to upgrade an Oldham: http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.8530 

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Me? I use a Rebel100 Sten and an Oldham DL16 combined 😉

WHAT?? A sten I thought you were an Oldham man through and through!!!

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Me? I use a Rebel100 Sten and an Oldham DL16 combined 😉

WHAT?? A sten I thought you were an Oldham man through and through!!!

I use both, toegether on the same helmet 😉
The Oldham is great but a little lacking on close range spill, using both I get an excellent long throw beam from the Oldham and lots of bright spill from the Sten.
Pretty good for dazzling people too 🙂

I use both, toegether on the same helmet 😉
The Oldham is great but a little lacking on close range spill, using both I get an excellent long throw beam from the Oldham and lots of bright spill from the Sten.
Pretty good for dazzling people too 🙂

It works very well, especially in larger chambers.

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I am working at Combe Down and for some reason, all the lamps there are lead-acid ones.

If ever they want to upgrade their lamps to the DL16 drop me a PM 😉 :angel:

job is in 'phased closure' stage 😞


"The Oldham batteries are bigger simply because they have a massive capacity.
If its durability and reliablity you are after then its the Oldham every time.
If you want a low budget caving lamp then the Raptor's are a good buy."

I'd say that was about right, yes.



as for the crossover between mining and caving lamps, I would say the main consideration is working life, as defined by number of discharge/charge cycles and hence cost per day. There are various testing specifications, most of which have to do with intrinsic safety for use in gassy atmospheres.

I don't believe the Chinese lamps have been tested to British standards 😮 and hence can't be used for that purpose.

the various headlamps, petzls and carbide units are completely out of consideration for that reason.

mining lamps aren't actually tested for submersion, in the sense that it isn't part of the specification, ( see the thread referred to above for more detail on this matter ) , but in real-world terms the Oldham dates from the days of jack-leg drilling and that's a wet old job, especially for overhead shrinkage stoping.. so they are pretty good that way. it's the same reason that the first thing you did to one of the old red T type batteries was put biro end-caps in the vent holes, so that you didn't get cave water in the cells 😉

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There's quite an interesting topic on Caving Chat at this http://www.forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=8132  - it's got the following exchange between a forum user and a representative of the manufacturer:

xcathodex wrote: is there a planned model for Aboveground Caving?

caplamp wrote: at present we donnot manufacture that kinds of cap lamps

😮

I had a read of that thread, amusing, typical Chinese question avoidance when they do not know an answer.

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Seeing as you all know I'm the UK distrubutor for them, if you have any questions, you're quite welcome to ask me about it.

The rep with poor english talking on Cavechat is obviously a low ranking sales person employed to drum up interest (Chinese are like that). Yes the company that makes them for me is TJL but it's not a model you'll find on their website because it's a custom specification.

EX Ia/II CT4 is an international standard and I do have all the paperwork from the agency that does the testing. It's submersion proof yes, I've run mine under water for an hour (both head and battery) without so much as a whiff of condensation. If my whole body has been more than 1m under water for over an hour I'm probably beyond caring how much longer it'll stay waterproof after that.

I have asked a number of British mine explorers to produce unbiased reviews of the Raptor Pro and hopefully they'll be available soon.

I've tried hard to steer people away from a oldham vs raptor debate on www.mine-explorer.co.uk. Both lamps are right for different reasons. People are free to choose what suits their needs.

Indeed, as I said, the Raptor Pro appears to be a modified/upgraded version of the KL6L7M - the picture of the Raptor Pro battery does say "KL6L7M" on it, so I presume it must be related in some way?

As above, TJL appear to make lamps specifically for use in mining, so they should be able to take a fair bit of abuse. It does look very like the Oldham, the 'reference' miner's lamp, but then again the Chinese are particularly good at that sort of thing - just have a look at this http://i39.tinypic.com/122otqt.jpg !

As far as immersion-proofing is concerned, you're correct about it not needing to be capable of sustained immersion - because as long as it out-lasts the person it's attached to, it's done its job! 😮

Anyway, it'll be interesting to see the feedback in a couple of months' time when they've been out and about a bit. I've learned that snap feedback isn't always the best idea with something I've been using for the last 3 months which I thought was rather good, but has turned out to be worse than useless (it's a Tesco headlamp, before you ask!).


Presumably the lamp on Roy's page (importer's http://www.ledcavinglamp.co.uk/ ) is something completely different? It seems to have the cable coming out of the top of the lamp, which is something that seems to risk grinding it against the ceiling.

Miles has a valid point as regards personal preference: as I said above, I prefer something that's been designed for "recreational" use and that values lightweight design over the ability to be repeatedly bashed against the ceiling!

After a couple of years of resistance, I've moved over to using the Sten 7+ and it's a great bit of kit, although I can appreciate Jagman's desire to add an Oldham DL16 to see things a couple of hundred yards away!


PS - what emitter/power output does the Raptor Pro have? Not fussed about bins and colour temperatures and all that sort of nonsense that's irrelevant to 99.99% of users!

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interesting trip last night at Godstone Main Series, apart from anything else, it gave me a chance to compare the Raptor and Raptor Pro side-by-side

The original Raptor ( as described on Roy's link above ) is the one with the centre-exit cable. It bears the lettering 'New Wisdom' on the case and bezel, so I assume it is from a different manufacturer entirely.

It's a typical Far East mining lamp, I've seen these 'Oldham knock-offs' for quite a few years. They are a cost-effective lamp which doesn't really meet European standards but does the job.

mining lamps often had centre-exit cables, the old Wolf lamp was the same. I've never found this to be a problem for mining. Most mining helmets have a centre rib ( V-Gard, Centurion, etc ) and the cable lies beside the rib if you have it properly secured at the back. It's also fairly common for mine staff ( especially supervisors or surveyors ) to have their lamp hanging round their neck, or clipped to their pocket, and the centre cable suits well for this.

same reason, mining lamps have cables which are inconveniently long for caving.



first impression is that the two lamps have somewhat different LED units, with somewhat different spread characteristics, and which you prefer is up to you.

The side-exit cable is probably preferable for caving-style helmets.

the batteries are much of a muchness, the Raptor Pro is supposed to fit on a belay belt while the original one doesn't. Last night's experience was that n either fit a Dragon belay belt, but the Pro fit a slimmer one from another manufacturer.

Neither will fit my old NCB leather belt, either would fit the usual wide mining belt with straps for lamp and self-rescuer.


I would agree that the Oldham vs Raptor question, is the wrong question. Either Raptor version looks as though it would be a cost-effective caving lamp for what most people do, most of the time.

If you want long life and out-and-out ruggedness, you probably want the Oldham. I'm about to order one ( because I need a properly stamped EC-spec lamp for work ) so I might learn something soon.

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Indeed, as I said, the Raptor Pro appears to be a modified/upgraded version of the KL6L7M - the picture of the Raptor Pro battery does say "KL6L7M" on it, so I presume it must be related in some way?

Yes the R-Pro is based on that lamp, but with a few mods.

As above, TJL appear to make lamps specifically for use in mining, so they should be able to take a fair bit of abuse. It does look very like the Oldham, the 'reference' miner's lamp, but then again the Chinese are particularly good at that sort of thing - just have a look at this http://i39.tinypic.com/122otqt.jpg !

Yep, China can copy stuff well (just like the Russians) and a lot of the stuff that comes out of the country is not very good. But it's a big country and they also produce some very good stuff. The Fenix is made in China, for instance. So are Sony Vaio laptops.

The Raptor Pro isn't a copy of the DL16. It's older than the DL16 for a start by several years. You can certainly see the Oldham T influence in the head though, but all miner-type caplamps look like that these days. Speleo FX2/FX3/FX5 heads look like Oldham heads.

As far as immersion-proofing is concerned, you're correct about it not needing to be capable of sustained immersion - because as long as it out-lasts the person it's attached to, it's done its job! 😮

Anyway, it'll be interesting to see the feedback in a couple of months' time when they've been out and about a bit. I've learned that snap feedback isn't always the best idea with something I've been using for the last 3 months which I thought was rather good, but has turned out to be worse than useless (it's a Tesco headlamp, before you ask!).

Yep, well it's a new product to market so I can't comment on how they'll all be functioning in 1 year / 3 years etc. The lamp on which it's based (save for LED improvements) has been in use in mines internationally since 2003 though.

Presumably the lamp on Roy's page (importer's http://www.ledcavinglamp.co.uk/ ) is something completely different? It seems to have the cable coming out of the top of the lamp, which is something that seems to risk grinding it against the ceiling.

Different product produced by a different company (Wisdom, of China). I have one myself.

Miles has a valid point as regards personal preference: as I said above, I prefer something that's been designed for "recreational" use and that values lightweight design over the ability to be repeatedly bashed against the ceiling!

After a couple of years of resistance, I've moved over to using the Sten 7+ and it's a great bit of kit, although I can appreciate Jagman's desire to add an Oldham DL16 to see things a couple of hundred yards away!

Yep. He runs his Oldham head off a Raptor One battery and charger though 😉

I agree the S7+ is great and so is the DL16.

PS - what emitter/power output does the Raptor Pro have? Not fussed about bins and colour temperatures and all that sort of nonsense that's irrelevant to 99.99% of users!

In the Raptor Pro it's a version of the SSC P4, run at 1/2 amp and developing 120 Lumens I believe. This is mounted into a 52mm chrome reflector and give a tight-spot/wide spill combo, as generally liked by miners.

Note I said a version of the P4. The factory ordered enough of them to be able to specify some differences to the stock P4, mainly a wider optic to work better with the big reflector, and a slightly more yellow colour output than pure white, believed to be easier on the eye. Or so I'm told :lol:

Pilot is via six SMT LEDs, reduntantly wired so a failure in the main LED/regulator won't compromise the pilot.

[mod]Tweaked quote - Vanoord[/mod]

The original Raptor ( as described on Roy's link above ) is the one with the centre-exit cable. It bears the lettering 'New Wisdom' on the case and bezel, so I assume it is from a different manufacturer entirely.

It's a typical Far East mining lamp, I've seen these 'Oldham knock-offs' for quite a few years. They are a cost-effective lamp which doesn't really meet European standards but does the job.

The Wisdom lamp and the Raptor One are not the same lamp, that's a common misperception as they do look very similar to each other. The company Roy links to imports the Wisdom.

Yep, China can copy stuff well (just like the Russians) and a lot of the stuff that comes out of the country is not very good. But it's a big country and they also produce some very good stuff. The Fenix is made in China, for instance. So are Sony Vaio laptops.

Yup - as are many Apple products, including this very computer I'm using!

The Fenixes are very good kit (yes, I sell them!), so I've got no aversion to decently-made Chinese stuff!

That said, I've come across a Chinese knock-off of the (Chinese!) Fenix T1 that claimed the same output in lumens (using the same emitter), yet when independently tested produced 40% less light than the genuine article!

Yep, well it's a new product to market so I can't comment on how they'll all be functioning in 1 year / 3 years etc. The lamp on which it's based (save for LED improvements) has been in use in mines internationally since 2003 though.

With the pace of change in technology, the days when an Oldham would last for 40 years are gone - and many things that were once considered "for life" are now effectively disposable.

In the Raptor Pro it's a version of the SSC P4, run at 1/2 amp and developing 120 Lumens I believe. This is mounted into a 52mm chrome reflector and give a tight-spot/wide spill combo, as generally liked by miners.

Ta!

The choice of the Seoul P4 would seem to 'reflect' the aim for a wider spill - the emitters tend to be more like a Luxeon than a Cree and iirc the Oldham DL16 uses a Luxeon? http://www.ledstyles.de/images/test/high-power-led-test-gross.jpg 

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The choice of the Seoul P4 would seem to 'reflect' the aim for a wider spill - the emitters tend to be more like a Luxeon than a Cree and iirc the Oldham DL16 uses a Luxeon? http://www.ledstyles.de/images/test/high-power-led-test-gross.jpg 

Well it's not a stock P4, the one in the Raptor Pro is slightly wider. The regulator is set to drive it at 500ma, as that was thought to get the best balance of run time to light. Nothing to stop you opening it and driving it at an amp if you so wanted, but you'd half the burn time of course.

The Oldham DL16 uses a 3w Luxeon (yielding 90 lumens) but again its a special side-firing version for use with a light-gathering reflector, that the DL16 also has.

ok, I'd understood my one to be a Raptor One, but it definitely has the 'New Wisdom' logo. If not then I've misunderstood the advertising, :confused: probably due to not knowing the people or paying over-much attention anyway 😉

so, for 'Raptor One', read 'New Wisdom', throughout


my experience of lead-acid Oldhams is that they last about 5 years in regular service, which is not bad for a small lead-acid unit like that. They will probably be down to about 6 hours by then!

Commercial users dispose of them by this point, and cavers would buy them and limp on for many years; there used to be one notorious one at my ( then ) club which was good for about 3 hours with care, and it made 'learner' trips for several years in that state. 😮

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