I wonder if there's anything we can do as a forum to try and encourage people not to try their hand at re-working old mines?

🔗Personal-Album-1695-Image-32295[linkphoto]Personal-Album-1695-Image-32295[/linkphoto][/link]

I never knew Vlad the impaler was a mining enthusiast...

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I never knew Vlad the impaler was a mining enthusiast...

Probably not, but he had a way of getting his point across.

Just my opinion of how to deal with mineral collectors who damage mine and cave formations. :curse:

Yeah I know, but a lot of them are good guys and would condemn this behaviour as well, I remember the previous debate and I do get the mineral thing as I collect different stuff and its a passion. The real mineral collectors i've met are happy with a sample and thats it. I've seen just as much damage done in mines by non collectors over the years as well.
Like someone has already said if they are found let the authorities deal with it.

By the way well done to Ben!

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Yep, on reflection, another prickly subject best left alone. :flowers:

Last time around, that person was expelled for:

a) being deliberately unpleasant, and most importanly;
b) for thinly veiled threats of violence

Very simple. Threaten anybody on here violence underground and you're out.

This happened before I joined so I missed out on a chance to support the beleaguered collector who got cast into exile. When I was told of it I checked the thread and found it very interesting. Here is the link for those interested:

http://www.AditNow.co.uk/community/viewtopic.aspx?t=202&pid=1  http://www.AditNow.co.uk/community/viewtopic.aspx?t=202&pid=1 

It gets heated from page 3 onwards. Now having read it a number of things struck me about BOTH sides in the debate.

1. The banished collector’s arguments are technically correct, although he needs to work on his diplomatic skills.
2. Some of the counter-arguments are just plain silly, like expecting collectors to make do with photos. Photos of mud? And as he correctly pointed out, one cannot test or properly study specimens in a photo. Asking if he often sees elderly people doing this is just plain stupid, and irrelevant.
3. I can understand the irritation he must have felt at yet another attack on his hobby. In an earlier thread “Jimbo” had called mineral collectors “scum”. I do not like being called “scum”, and nor, I am sure, does the banished collector. It is sentiments like this, together with imposition of restrictions as in the Lake District, that have led to an increased militancy amongst collectors, who see their hobby under threat. When people feel under siege, they are likely to react angrily. Perhaps some of the anti-collectors here should consider toning down their rhetoric, before they end up provoking another angry response.

More seriously, I think a grave injustice was done in expelling the member. Apart from the freedom of speech aspect, the accusations against him were false and hypocritical. Specifically:

He did NOT threaten anybody. I have read, and re-read the thread. Nowhere does he make any threats, veiled or otherwise. The first to accuse him of making threats was Jagman (who was also the one who changed the topic to an attack on mineral collectors). Here’s what Jagman wrote:

Stephen, you are a pompous, ignorant tosser of the highest order.
Should I ever be unfortunate enough to meet you and you confront me with that attitude you shall be in for a rude surprise.
Your posts display gross hypocrisy and you dont even have the wit to recognise the contradictions in your own posts.
I would caution you in your approach to others that you may meet in persuit of your interests, you may find yourself just an artifact in a mine one day yourself.
If you ever find yourself in a position to threaten anybody in my presence outside the safety of an internet forum you will suddenly find yourself in a different world.
Ignorant fool.

As there was nothing in Stephen’s previous posts that could be construed as a threat (unless Jagman was frightened he might get a talking to, which is all Stephen said) Jagman’s accusation is clearly false. Now looking at what Jagman wrote what do we find? THREE threats! And not even veiled ones either. “..in for a rude surprise”, “may find yourself just an artifact” & “suddenly find yourself in a different world”. And a heap of foul abuse. So it is acceptable for an aditnow member to heap abuse on another (Stephen’s language had been provocative, but it was not abusive) and to make false accusations of threats, and to makes threats of his own, and he will get away with it because he is anti-collecting. But when a collector makes a spirited defence of his hobby without actual name-calling and without threats, he gets falsely accused of being threatening and gets thrown off the site! What blatant double standards.

So simonrl, and vanoord, having read Jagman’s outburst, just who was
“a) being deliberately unpleasant, and most importanly;
b) for thinly veiled threats of violence”?

I thought this thread was about current dammage found in Smallcleugh Mine. Can we keep it to that please.
Thanks for all the comments, support and to those who have recently been into Smallcleugh and have helped to maintain what is part of a scheduled monument and geological SSSI.

I thought this thread was about current dammage found in Smallcleugh Mine. Can we keep it to that please.
Thanks for all the comments, support and to those who have recently been into Smallcleugh and have helped to maintain what is part of a scheduled monument and geological SSSI.

It is about Smallcleugh, you are quite correct 😉

Level1, your link doesn't work. You are also quite wrong in your post. You quote my response to a not so veiled threat. Interesting that you choose to quote me but not the other party.
However, as pointed out, this thread is about Smallcleugh. If you wish to debate what was said then feel free to do so on another thread (with consent of the moderators) or by PM
Aplogies for another of topic post Paul but I felt obliged to respond, as requested I won't go further into that subject on this thread.

I thought this thread was about current dammage found in Smallcleugh Mine. Can we keep it to that please.

Well said ! 🙂

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Very well Jagman, it is drifting a little off-topic, but please e-mail me at [email protected] explaining what the "threat" was you were responding to, as I am damned if I can see it, and it is something I have wondered about ever since I was first told about it, hence me taking this opportunity to raise it. Sorry my PM has not been activated yet so can't use that here. Don't know what's wrong with the link, it was a thread about "Removal of artefacts".

With respect to the recent mischief in Smallcleugh, if anyone can take some pics and post them here it would be helpful. It is difficult to comment on a specific incident without having more to go on. If, as is implied, explosives were used then, apart from the legal implications, it begs the question, where does one get them from? In this day and age they are not available over the counter.

I haven't been to Smallcleugh for some time so I can't help on this specific incedent. Damage from mineral collecting is a long established problem and Smallcleugh has fallen victim to that damage for many years.
As regards explosives use, black powder is easy to get an appropriate licence for. There are other methods such as hilti-capping that require no licence and are common practice.

On the other issue I shall drop you an e-mail tomorow!

This happened before I joined so I missed out on a chance to support the beleaguered collector who got cast into exile. When I was told of it I checked the thread and found it very interesting. Here is the link for those interested:

Absolutely no offence intended here Level1, but I think you've hit the nail on the head there. It happened before you joined.

Please remember this is a site of some 3,500 members, and there is a five strong moderation team. Rude or abusive messages, or outright threats of physical violence can and will result in posts being removed.

We apply this rule fairly to both sides of any argument.

This is not censorship. So I'm not going to sit here justifying administrative actions. We moderate very infrequently. Mostly because in the vast majority of situations it is not necessary.

We do not seek to dictate what people can discuss, provided it is relevant, nor as a policy do we side with one group of individuals or discrimate against another.

So please understand that the worst of that thread has been removed, because it detracted from the hobby / interest and because it detracted from the web site.

Whatever your feelings on that, whether you believe it or not and whatever your opinons are of people who posted on that thread the simple fact is that the member who got banned crossed the line from disagreeing with other members and voicing his disagreement, either politely or less politely (not a banning matter either, debates are free to get heated where opinions vary) to threating people with violence.

"I always have companions, and we carry steel."

That may be a flippant remark, it may have been posturing. But it may also have been a real and intentioned threat. And I do not run this web site for people to threaten others in that way.

For the record I had several people, some of them mineral collectors, contact me during the exchange to voice concerns about the individual's conduct.

He did not get 'cast into excile' for being a mineral collector, or for daring to disagree with other posters on here. This isn't about ganging up on a person because of his interest, and it most emphatically isn't a case of double standards.

He got banned becuase he posted something that can be read as a threat to put a knife into somebody.

If anybody reading this has a real problem with the administration of this web site, then drop me a PM (Level1 I have activated PM access for you, you just have to ask, and the safeguard is to protect us from spammers).

I hope this will be an end discussion on this point. It happened a long time in the past, I think I'm right in saying that it's the only time anybody has been banned and one of very few times any moderation has been needed.

This is a sensible web site that seeks to serve all people interested in mining and quarrying history and to play a small part in documenting and preserving the memory of that history, and I hope the majority of members would consider that we do an at least reasonable job of achieving that.

As PaulatNent said, can we please get back to discussing the recent damage at Nent.

Some recent photographs would be very useful, I agree.

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Hi,

Last time I was in Smallcleugh (can't remember when!), I seem to remember that there were signs of drilling/collecting in the North End Flatts just before the hands and knees section. This was something that was certainly noticeable.
Mineral collectors do have an obligation to collect responsibly, and such wanton damage to the underground environment must be condemned, BUT this cannot be used as an excuse to denigrate all collectors. We all enjoy the unique underground environment and we must respect each others interests. Please take note, all of you in the Hang 'Em High brigade!!!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

OK.. having just been in Smallclough, and Rampgill, and seen all sorts of relevant things, I feel justified in jumping in here..

First of all, I'm not happy that an officer of the NPHT is making comments on a public website about his opinions. If he has a problem, it should be discussed with his superiors, not in an open public forum. I believe it is totally irresponsible for him to encourage discussion on a subject which has already provoked more than enough problems on the site.

Second, the NPHT does NOT own the mines, nor does it own the mineral rights, and nor is it the policing authority for SSSI's or any other form of quasi governmental quango arbitrarily slopping euro geo theme park orders on the area.

Thirdly... I happen to have seen the latest lot of 'damage' - a slab of rock levered off the roof of Wheel Flats, and galena being splattered everywhere in a vain attempt to collect a few measly crystals which were broken anyway. I saw the group of people involved, and gave them the bollocking of their lives. They had also pulled deads down across the trackway through Wheel Flats, and at the entrance to Hetheringtons. The same group had 'collected' the barrow wheel that sits in one of the little crosscuts off the Horse Level, and a length of fishbelly rail as souvenirs. I took it off them and it is now back where it normally resides. The fishbelly is outside the entrance. This group are an official mining research group, who publish bulletins, and are held in high regard in many circles for their digging and exploration activities. Some of them are friends - I make no excuses - I didnt even know they were up in the area till we met in the Flats -suffice to say that they won't be doing this again.

My other experience of the weekend was a long trip to the back of Rampgill. I'd already been in on the friday, and the floor of the level through the last of the Norpex digs was clear. I went in the next day, it was still clear. On my way out, a large party was on their way in - and the destruction of stacked deads on the way out through the crawls was maddening. I spent about 20 minutes re-stacking rock that people had knocked off the sides as they carelessly scrabbled through the crawls. These were not collecors - in fact I know most of them, and they are vehemently anti collecting - but they certainly made a mess of the digs in Rampgill.

I was in another mine recently and found myself in a totally new area I've never seen before. Its one of those places few people ever get to see. I was sitting in amazement looking at cavity after cavity filled with specimens - galena crystals, quartz, ankerite - beautiful. I didnt even have a hammer with me - nor would I have used it - the cavities are too narrow, and too beautiful. No collector has seen these -- there are even loose pieces sitting in the bottom of the vugs. To my surprise, several of the cavities were stuffed with the remains of explorers lunches - plastic drink bottles, sandwich wrappers, cigarette packets. Collectors would have taken the loose specimens, THEN filled the cavity with rubbish - no, this was NOT collectors rubbish!

Ben and I spent several hours over the weekend re-stacking deads at Hetheringtons, and clearing the floor of Hetheringtons of deads that have been pulled down by careless tourists. We cleaned up Wheel Flats, we let water go from the Horse Level in several places, and cleared the floor of the Norpex digs in Rampgill - which didnt leave a lot of time for collecting anyway...

I'm not even going to do any more than mention the massive volumes of artefacts taken from the mines by mine explorers who vehemently oppose collecting, whilst gleefully recording in their memoirs the numbers of clay pipes and other mementoes that now adorn their mantles..

Lets just accept that explorers and collectors both have their reasons for going down - a common love of mines and mine life, and whilst they may not always agree with each other, they are both responsible for the fact that the mines are accessible to the parties of visitors taken underground by Paul Mercer, who wouldnt have a job if we didnt keep the mines open and safe for him.

I suggest that Paul Mercer keeps his big mouth shut - collectors are not the reason for the 'problems' he observes - and problems get cleaned up and sorted out without his interference. He should also realise that the NPHT has very little to do with the health, or otherwise, of the underground workings - and it is the actions and goodwill of a lot of people like myself, Ben, groups like Mr. Mikes, Roy Fellows, and others, who keep the mines open, clear of rubbish, water, etc etc., and who dig, timber, prop, stone wall, make safe, record, photograph. When was the last time Paul Mercer helped with a dig? How about you come and get filthy dirty and sopping wet next weekend when we dig Haggs, Paul - you can dig the slop from the shaft while we cut the steel - I'm dreaming, I know - you'll be sitting in a cosy little office in the Heritage Centre dreaming of the next paycheque from some quasi government grant we taxpayers all contributed to.

I shall now sit back and dodge the flak from all directions - sorry Simon if I've strayed from the politically correct - I've tried hard not to..!


:guns:

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I am quite open about this. I like to collect minerals but 99 percent of my collecting was done in the 70's. However, having seen the downright, wanton damage that has been done in the ****** mine by so called collectors who were nothing more than dealers, posing as collectors, I am totally appalled.

In the 70's there were pathways through the neatly stacked deads and plenty of flourite crystals still in situ. The deads were crawling with fluorite specimens. The deads have been combed for specimens and thrown aside willy nilly and the amount of rubbish left behind by these mine rapists is truly unbelievable.

People, such as those that raped Dowscar Flats, deserve to be designated "scum". They have left nothing for future generations except piles of rubbish.

If these flats had yielded one specimen per visitor, then I think that people a hundred years hence would still have been able to take something home but anyone who visits now will only be able to wail at the vandalism in pursuit of profit.

Finally I'll play devil's advocate and ask "Is it acceptable to remove a mineral specimen from a mine and display it in a museum where it would be seen by many thousands or even hundreds of thousands, rather than be seen by a few hundred mine explorers?"

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Well Said Patch....

Seen what they've done - and it's repeated wherever those dealers go collecting - rubbish everywhere, deads everywhere. They ARE scum, and they cause a lot of bad feeling for the majority of collectors who are just down there to have fun, often with purist mine explorers.

😉

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Skippy

I agree with most of your comments (except the personal ones!!) and respect the activities and conservation work undertaken by ALL responsible people who go 'under Nenthead' whether they be explorer, mineral collector, anachist....whatever. (Do you count as all three ?! 😉 )

You are quite correct when you point out that at times damage is done and rubbish left by all sorts of groups.

As an educator I am very happy to use this and any other forum as a tool to educate.

Next time you are stopping at Hellens call in to see me - it's easier than using this forum to slag each other off!

Having put in many back breaking hours ourselves over the year clearing and maintaining areas in the Nent mines eg.... Entrance to Brownleyhill Mine, Rampgill level, rubbish shifting/dead stacking North End Flatts, clearing Brownleyhill Horse Level (access to High Cross Vein/Jug), digging out Scaleburn Horse Whim, clearing blockages in the old days in Carr's Mine, clearing and widening access on Middlecleugh 2nd Sun Vein, Middlecleugh Vein, opening up the Zinc stope on Guddamgill Vein, etc etc, I can safely say this is one mineral collector who has helped make the underground environment a more pleasant place for all!!! I could carry on listing our own efforts, however it would fill this thread up!
If each and everyone did a little more clearing, and a little less moaning think how much better Nenthead could be for all!!! :thumbsup:

oooo, glad I'm not one of those naughty dealers!

and there was me, thinking that the purpose and function of a mine was to extract minerals for commercial purposes :blink:

you might even suggest, if you weren't bothered quite who you offended, that a dealer was more of a 'purist' than an explorer...

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oooo, glad I'm not one of those naughty dealers!

and there was me, thinking that the purpose and function of a mine was to extract minerals for commercial purposes :blink:

you might even suggest, if you weren't bothered quite who you offended, that a dealer was more of a 'purist' than an explorer...

So deliberate and willful destruction of what remains of a mine is acceptable then?