While the rest of the world recoiled in horror at recent events in Guinea, where at least 150 pro-democracy supporters were killed and dozens of women publicly raped by government soldiers, China has sensed an opportunity to steal another march on Western competitors in Africa. ..................Guinea, the world’s largest exporter of bauxite, also has huge deposits of uranium, iron ore, diamonds and a host of other minerals. It is also believed to have significant off-shore oil reserves. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article6871943.ece 

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no news there, then

you don't see Chinese businessmen being dragged into court for laying on a Roller and some call-girls for a government official in some dodgy third-world country or other, in return for a nice bit of business, and it certainly works for them.

they don't hand out money either. Anything you get from them, you pay for two or three times over.

they simply laugh at the whole concept of 'level playing field'. Come to that, so do plenty of our European so-called friends; do you think Saipem ( Italian ) are the biggest marine contractor in the world because they are jolly nice chaps? Do you think Angela Merkel is blatantly attempting to rig the GM buy-out because jobs for Opel are jobs everywhere i Europe? No, thought not....

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Well said Derrikman.... Our British sense of fairplay seems to be the only one around... what really hacks me off is that those a***holes claiming for their mote to be cleaned, mortgages they don't have etc seem unable to get off their butts and do a deal for British industry.... oh but why would they ... there is probably nothing in it for them personally, plus the vast majority of em won't have a job soon so why bother. :surrender:

I know first hand how business works in the so called level playing field. Mainland europe is just the same as ever, they just hide things more carefully by getting someone else to make the "pension donations" for them :angel: ... they are quietly pragmatic that business is business and will do whatever is necessary to get the work.... and the authorities as long as its not in their face seem to ignore it or even intervene to close the deal. Bribery is bribery whether its the govt making a deal or brown envelope passed over a drink!

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I'm afraid that after 30-odd years in the expat oil and gas sector I have completely lost interest in the 'British sense of fair play'.

business is business, it's not a game.

the sheer unworldliness and enthusiasm for pursuing self- abstract goals, shown by our so-called governing classes, is an international embarrassment

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I agree... I have the same view after only 6 years working internationally. I got sick of seeing UK companies play by the rules to get caned by other countries who didn't give a toss about fairplay!

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Back to the East India Company- we could probably drug the Chinese into submission. 😮

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I agree... I have the same view after only 6 years working internationally. I got sick of seeing UK companies play by the rules to get caned by other countries who didn't give a toss about fairplay!

the problem is, that half these rules have been invented by our own government and are regarded as irrelevant elsewhere.

like it or not, the people who built the historic wealth of this country were thieves and rogues, often even by the very different standards of their own times.

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But then again, where does wealth actually come from. If you drew a line around china and assume that were self sufficient, could they raise themselves to a parallel with western standards of living?

In order to raise a standard of living, it has to be paid for elsewhere. You exploit others to raise your own average without doing that, you can only further the difference from the average and hope you are "upwardly mobile".

The funny thing is, we've allowed debt to get in the way of this. The Chinese know the proper score and sadly, there isn't a nice way of doing it. They know that in order to succeed on a huge scale, in order to stay well out in front, they need to exploit someone else. If they can do the job cheaper in another country (like Togo for example) they can increase their margins even more. In my opinion, apart from the rush to gain resources, they are also looking for cheaper labour.

The snag is that the wealth generation /political system in China cannot continue without an overhaul of one of them. It's very interesting. There is a popular view that China is well on it's way to becoming the new West whilst we slink into "retirement" as a country. I can't see how this is possible. China as a phenomena are in a huge mess.

It will be an interesting piece of history.....I reckon.

my experience is that China isn't interested in cheap labour and no HSE regulations, they have an unlimited supply of their own on both counts.

They also have language problems in that no-one else, certainly no-one in Africa, can read, write or speak Chinese.

they want resources, having rightly concluded that if you are going to make things, you need something to make them FROM; so either they have the commercial advantage or they sell you stuff you need.

plus, their model is very like the old British 'informal trading empire' model. They have seen the Russians try to do it with guns, and seen the results.

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In my opinion, apart from the rush to gain resources, they are also looking for cheaper labour.

There would a touch of irony here if this is true after we imported thousands of Chinese into the Transvaal at the end of the Boer War to get the mines working again for just that reason.

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We shall see about that :)

If the Chinese get too good, they'll get tempted by bigger margins. Places in Africa have the labour available (even cheaper) less potential regulation, plus, you can have it at home AND abroad.

Things like language don't get in the way these days, plus, give it a couple of years and China will be the greatest population of English speakers in the world.

Africa is pretty much virgin territory and there are lots of flows that can be set up. I'd say aspects of manufacture as well as primaries were very important indeed.

The Western world can't be arsed.....or hasn't so far. I think we're more concerned with oil than manufacture.

Unfortunately, this is the all-too-common problem of government expanding itself. Once upon a time, the authorities would have come down pretty hard on any company found to have engaged in bribery to win contracts within the UK. Where a company had done the same overseas, there might have been some tut-tutting from goverment but they would have taken the line that any prosecution was entirely down to the law enforcement bodies of the country it had happened in, and if the shareholders of the company didn't like what had gone on, it was down to them to hold the management to account.

However, we now have governments trying to prosecute companies for alleged offences outside of their jurisdiction, unless the recipients of the kickbacks have a sufficiently strong grip on the nadgers of said government, in which case it magically ceases to be in the public interest to prosecute. Much as we might want to be whiter than white, there are many places in the world where getting a deal done requires bribery. As far as I'm concerned, if it doesn't happen on UK soil and it doesn't have a negative impact on UK national interests, there is no case for UK prosecutions.

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In effect if it has a positive impact on UK national interests it is to be encouraged, or, at the very least, to 'do a Nelson'.

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I agree Derrickman, I work in/with China on a few projects with some major manufacturers in heavy industry. They play it wonderfully clever....

In one instance it went something like this- "Hi Mr Mine Company, we would like all your XYZ you can mine, oh and while were at it we'll even build you the railway facilities to move it inc wagons, locomotives etc etc.... Oh and Mr Minister seeing as China is your best friend we will even give your country lots of new stuff like trains, telecoms, drainage projects out of the goodness of our heart... whats the catch you say? ... Well just commit that there won't be a problem with your mining companies selling everything to us for the next 10 years while we give you all these free things, as it will take a good 10 years to put them in place!"

In the above example-

The local Mining Co Wins!
The countries Government Wins (look at the improvements they'll be making for the people)!
The Chinese manufacting industry wins by getting long term resources!
Every one else is shut out the market for 10 years!
The Chinese are perceived to be friends of that country!
Not a single penny changed hands!

I don't see China ever using African Labour, it just wants mineral resources but rather than just bid with everyone else they rope in aid packages supplying cheaply made goods, equipment etc thus guaranteeing that the only export licenses granted go East!

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I agree with both Derrickman and Iclok. You only have to look back through history to see how GB (Great Britain) exploited foreign countries and cheap labour to build the old British Empire i.e. read about the East India Company etc, and don't forget the Royal Navy was nothing but a band of pirates from Elizabeth the First's reign until the end of the Napoleonic Wars (after the Battle of Waterloo in 1815 - taking enemy ships during these wars as prizes was nothing short of piracy!). This is not a detrimental comment on the RN (I have a grandson in the Fleet Air Arm) so please don't take offence.

I've watched the situation regarding the diminishing of mineral deposits developing since 1982 and earlier. For many years before then I subscribed to the "Geographical Magazine" (not the National Geographic, which is completely different). In this magazine appeared an article about Mrs. Thatcher saving money by withdrawing the Royal Navy Antartic patrol vessel, it drew attention to how stupid this action was, as whoever held South Georgia held the gateway to Antartica and all it's mineral wealth. Because of the recession when he left school in 1981 with only the prospect of the "yop" scheme open to him my eldest son joined the Junior Leader's Regiment of the Royal Artillery (R.A.). and suddenly the Field Gun that was based at his barracks was swiftly taken away by helicopter. Why? because in March, 1982 South Georgia was captured by Argentinian scrap merchants and the UK went into meltdown, the South Atlantic Task Force was mustered within a matter of days and sailed from Portsmouth with civilian crews volunteering to go with the merchant ships that sailed in the convoy. I immediately said to my sons and to those of my friends who wanted to listen, this war is not about saving the Falkland Islands, it is about the minerals that are down there (the Coalite Company from Bolsover - correct me if I'm wrong - owned the Islands or most of the land of the islands and from memory isn't there a hugh deposit of brown coal down there?) and all future wars will be about - minerals and water. Since then I have been proved right many times over, look at the obscure little bits of news that appear about the UK establishing the ownership of miles of offshore water surrounding the Falkland Islands, and then see about the granting of oil rights for drilling in the area. It is with concern that I have watched China move into Africa, during all the recent troubles with President Mogarbi, the Chinese remained throughout in Zimbarwi.

The late 1970's early 1980's fluorspar bonanzo in Derbyshire and similar areas crashed when China flooded the world market with the export of cheap fluorspar - I bet they wished they'd kept it now.

In my opinion all future wars will be fought over diminishing mineral reserves and water, and the world in general is going to see a lot more about China taking over the world's mineral deposits. When I was a small child my granny (who was very religious - the opposite to me now) used to say "beware the yellow races coming from the east, they will take over the world", I often think of her prophecy and wonder what she would think now seeing China (also India) expanding as they are.

p.s. Off Topic, both my sons were in the R.A. and went down to the Falkland Islands for six months at the beginning of 1984. Unbeknown to me they snook my 35mm Halina camera with them, I have some excellent slides of penguins, the base camp on Goose Green and also a Rapier in flight, as afterwards the R.A. used the Falklands Islands for practise firing these (now obsolete) missiles.

can't agree with the comments about piracy.

prize-taking was widely practiced and well understood by all concerned. The 'Jack Aubrey' novels of Patrick O'Brien have a constant backdrop of the various pitfalls and restrictions a captain risked; prizes would be bought by an Admiralty commission and put back into service, or sold at auction, and the cargoes and fitments valued and disposed of similarly.

however, the owners of a neutral ship, or one protected by an agreement or consent of a neutral government, or in a protected trade, could - and frequently did - sue captains for damages, and the Admiralty would not intervene.

a captain was also expected to provide considerable hospitality for his officers and visiting captains, and ( if he saw fit ) to provide additional powder, shot and other munitions over and above the ships' complement. This was all funded from prize money.

the next step down, so to speak, was a vessel rated as 'His Majesty's Hired Ship'; effectively a chartered private vessel with certain contracted rights as to Admiralty resupply, and most - though not all - the duties and rights of a warship.

the next category, a 'privateer', or 'letter of marque' vessel, was a licensed ship authorised by a belligerent government to operate against the shipping of enemy nations. The only income would be the value of prizes, which might be bought by the Admiralty prize commission, or dealt with as the captain or owner saw fit. Crews and passengers of prize vessels could expect to be ransomed or otherwise dealt with as prisoners of war. However the captain and crew of a privateer risked being hanged as pirates in the event of attacking a third party and coming off worst, and they were generally regarded as little better than pirates, but were at least regarded as legal in their home countries and allied territories.

a pirate would be an unregistered vessel recognised by no national navy, drawing no resupply from any legal source and attacking any targets it saw fit, frequently killing the passengers or crew for lack of any other real alternative.


these distinctions were well understood by all concerned, in an age when it was regarded as quite normal and proper that 'patriotism should have its reward' and had been in existence since at least the latter part of the 17th century, if not before. Sir Francis Drake was a privateer, and far from being a general brigand could, under certain circumstances, be regarded as the representative of the Crown.

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as a closing note on prize money, I find that it was last paid in 1918 in the Royal Navy, although the captain and crew of the USS Omaha became the last American sailors to receive it as late as 1941 ( for a German blockade-runner, immediately before US entry into WW2 )

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With regards to China and India being a threat, they are hugely populated. China particularly has to control the population rigidly with one hand and encourage the free market with another. There is some very odd political control over there. I very much doubt it is possible for China to enjoy western levels of luxury/wealth. It just can't happen.

In my opinion, they are at their industrial revolution and running a parallel with the UK 150 years ago. Witness most living in poverty whilst a few take off. Whether or not they have got the infrastructure/resources capable of elevating the country to levels seen at the beginning of the 20th century, I'm not sure.

I'm seriously interested in where this is all going and I wonder if a federal/united Europe has a planned future for the distribution/planning of resources...... The UK is set up for another period of "burning"..... Maybe not for a decade or so and probably will be well hindered until the ongoing solar minima proves plant food gas has nothing to do with the global temps, despite China coughing out more in a day.....etc, etc.

I bet Lord Falmouth's sons are quietly rubbing their hands together. Give it 20 or 30 years and my estimate is that there will be a few headgears/declines in cornwall again.

Time will tell. 🙂

The problem is that China has promised its population a better standard of living and to do that needs to keep its workforce employed creating more cheap goods to supply back to the world economy. There is no chance that China will ever employ 3rd world factories to make goods until it is incapable of doing so it itself, it will simply keep buying up the resources of the 3rd world and perhaps at best buy some part finished goods.

There is no industrial revolution in China only industrial expansion, it already has the most up to date machinery/processes to produce technologically advanced goods and produces graduates of just the same calibre as the West. Whilst some of its industry is basic and of low quality, it is still sufficiently ok to manufacture the basic goods required by chinese society, but even this is rapidly improving as I have witnessed first hand.
China's older population in the poorer areas is happy for life to continue traditionally whilst their youth are away in the cities and factories earning cash to send home and whilst they have a roof over their head and food they will be happy as they stick together as a family and a few dollars a week is more than they have ever aspired to have before, they have a completely different mind set to us. As the elderly die off, the younger generations (as is already being seen) are deserting the farm and rural living for cities as work is plentiful in the main.
However the collapse of the dollar hurt the chinese economy and they are buying into banks and financial institutions as never before (afterall they have $2Trillion dollars to play with) to ensure they have more say on how the wealth is managed, London stock market beware. Given this wealth and influence and the fact that they don't really care what the world thinks of them they will buy up the best and cheapest resources first and that amount of buying power means they'll get it ... so I think it will be a long time before they look at mass re-opening of British mines with all the trappings of a p**s poor infrastructure, high wages, high environmental taxes, health and safety, tree huggers and so on.... when there are plenty of easier to win deposits in countries where a Rolls Royce or two and a few public projects will buy all the co-operation they need.

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