If I was from NRW and reading this (as I am sure they will), I wonder what I would be thinking now? And you wonder why you have so many contentious people constantly at war with each other in this area. Unbelievable.

Get off your high horse you sanctimonious prick. People are having a bit of a laugh, as is generally the case in this area when gates and access are discussed. I very much doubt that anyone with real intentions to cut off or damage a gate would actually post said intentions on a public forum. As it is, it's not there for the purposes of empire building, and people have needed to be rescued from said hole, so it'll probably stay exactly where it's put.

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Once the grill has been installed and access can be controlled, we would be happy to meet with your members and Denbighshire County Council to discuss any possible future explorations projects you may wish to undertake. If permission was to be granted for exploration following construction of the grill, we would wish this to be open to all the caving groups to work together.

At least it sounds like it is going have a lockable flap and not just a fixed grill. It's a little disappointing that they are not willing to discuss things prior to the gate being installed. If we could give our 2p worth before they fire the welder up, perhaps we could suggest the door could be secured with a simple 17mm bolt (like they do successfully in Derbyshire)

I'm not condoning peoples comments about reaching for the grinders, but I think if the council / NRW go for the "ask teacher for the key" approach, the grill won't be there very long!

Sounds like good news. I collect cave gates..

Laughed out loud in real life ;D

...Last time you had the police at your door Tony :angel:

(Still chuckling)

Ian

True, but they did not find a single gate in my back garden they all in my allotment. opps?!

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Sounds like good news. I collect cave gates..

Laughed out loud in real life ;D

...Last time you had the police at your door Tony :angel:

(Still chuckling)

Ian

True, but they did not find a single gate in my back garden they all in my allotment. opps?!

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but I think if the council / NRW go for the "ask teacher for the key" approach, the grill won't be there very long!

Sadly, I suspect that's a strong possibility at some point in the future.

Personal insults. The first resort of those who have nothing constructive to say.

The council / NRW don't actually give a damn about cavers. They could quite easily seal the hole permanently. This would be the easiest thing to do. They will be paranoid about public liability.

The fact that they have held out an olive branch is to be commended, and as I have already said (and some appear to be doing), accepting said olive branch is a pragmatic way forward.

Squaring up for a needless fight seems crazy. Why pick a fight when there isn't one!

Chris.

Does anyone actually know anything about this?

I cant think of where it could be and I used to walk the area frequently, although not been there for a few years.

Some of the letters content doesn't make sense, I mean is it a cave or a mine entrance, the mineral bit for instance.

EDIT
Gives location in the letter, but must obviously be one you can just walk into, and I cannot place it.

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Personal insults. The first resort of those who have nothing constructive to say.

I've said to various people that I'll play nice on here, but you make that very difficult. You started throwing the insults around by insinuating everyone was at war here. Nope. Relations are as good as I've ever found them, clubs attitudes have mellowed a bit and things are headed in the right direction. You may want to apologise to, well, everyone in N.Wales really, given your sweeping generalisation of us being "at war" with each other.

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Does anyone actually know anything about this?

The cave in question is wholly insignificant and has as close to zero interest to cavers as is possible without it actually hitting a zero. It would be more accurate to describe it as a small grotto with an aven. The interesting aspect is that it sits above and very close by, to Ogof Hesp Alyn which is the main cave of the area (and of great interest to local cavers).There are numerous caves in the Alyn Valley and, of all of them, three are scheduled for their geological “glacial silt” interest. Ogof Hesp Alyn is one of the three (all being between 1-2 miles down valley).

The river Alyn runs in front of the cave in winter but due to the karst environment, the river is dry in summer.

Exceptionally, there has been significant rainfall over the last 3 months and this has caused the floor of the cave/grotto to give away to an apparent (unknown) cave system below. The hole itself is the floor of the cave/grotto and extends downwards for around 30 feet with a diameter of around 15-20 feet (diminishing to around 6 feet at the base). It is the case that two dogs have fallen in the hole and their owners have gone in after them to retrieve them – both causing an cave rescue alert.

From a cursory look at the hole it is clear that the sunken material (gloopy/wet mud/silt) has been drawn through a lower passage no doubt by the excess water. It is also evident that there is some significance to the new hole as there is no sumping. Given its proximity to the known terminal point of Ogof Hesp Alyn and given that we know that cave extends around 6 miles beyond the known terminus, the new hole may be of great importance.

There again, there is a small cave entrance (gated and locked) which presents itself as a "manhole cover" around 40 feet away by the river and which is only accessible in dry conditions (it takes the river water when the river is in flow). This cave goes immediately down (a sink) and becomes too tight to pass fairly quickly. The "new" hole may well form some connection to that and would be "uninteresting".

.... There is no evidence of any "mineral" aside from the basic limestone (no apparent evidence of any salts, metals etc.)

:)

Ian

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I think the Cambrian Caving Council will suggest a gate hinged at the top and closed by a large nut & bolt (AKA a Derbyshire key) as the solution to the problem, but this will need to be discussed by council members before it is becomes official policy. The gate would have horizontal bars to allow bat passage and a stiff bolt lock will have the advantage of being 'club neutral' and less likely to encourage gate vandalism and/or removal. The proposal will have to acceptable to the Loggerheads Ranger service as they are responsible for public safety and the leet path passes close by the 'cave' entrance.

I think there is sufficient evidence from other sites around the country that this is good solution to protecting the public and I can ask DCC to provide some evidence if needed to back this claim up.

Dave

Thank you Ian for your very interesting explanation. Dave, yes good thinking and count on my support.

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Does anyone actually know anything about this?

The cave in question is wholly insignificant and has as close to zero interest to cavers as is possible without it actually hitting a zero.c.)

:)

Ian

Given that you say later in your post that the cave sits in a very strategic position near far reaches of OHA I would suggest, as someone who has spent a considerable time digging, that the hole would be of huge interest to cavers.

If it was in my bailiwick I would have been in for a prospecting dig by now.

Again thanks to Ian for the clarification.;D
I do not see why a protective gate on something close to a public footpath needs to cause such fury. Especially somewhere with a record of accidents.
As long as "the key" is not the sole possession of one caving organization.

The wildlife / controlling organization is clearly ready to talk as they have circulated the information widely and they have other cave entrances within their area.
Let us hope that it is all resolved without hysteria and vandalism. :thumbsup:

I think there is sufficient evidence from other sites around the country that this is good solution to protecting the public and I can ask DCC to provide some evidence if needed to back this claim up.

Dave

Err -- DCC or DCA ????

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The hinged gate with horizontal bars seems to work well in the N Pennines. Of course it doesn't keep all the stoners out of Smallcleugh, but is a good compromise between safety and accessibility, preventing numpties and sheep from just wandering in and throwing themselves down the nearest shaft.

FWIW our group has (when protecting permission-only sites)experimented with security screws such as pin torx, with self-locking nuts, rotating collars and the like with some success, but then nothing gets you in like the Big Green Key.

MARK

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Do we know who's been digging in there and have they been advised to stop until the situation is resolved ?

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Given its proximity to the known terminal point of Ogof Hesp Alyn and given that we know that cave extends around 6 miles beyond the known terminus,

Ian

6 miles , is that true ?

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I'm pretty sure the digs are "Historic", (Pre SSSI). No doubt someone will be able to correct me or expand on this.

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I fancy that it is what has been said in the letter, a sink hole and nothing to do with digging. The "digging minerals" bit is a piece of 'political embroidery'.

Now there is a new saying worth remembering!
:lol:

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