Carter
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9 years ago
Are there other letters to the one in the original post which is the same as the one I have received.
The only reason I ask is that it says NRW is aware that people have accessed the swallow hole and excavated materials.
I cannot find any reference to minerals .
Troglodyte, Luddite, Maybite.
dtyson
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9 years ago
"Carter" wrote:

Do we know who's been digging in there and have they been advised to stop until the situation is resolved ?



I don't think anyone has dug in that area for some considerable time. From my inspection today it does look like this is a natural collapse due to undermining of the cave sediments at depth by in-wash from the nearby River Alyn.

There are a lot of shakeholes in the river which probably extend either side of the banks. I guess the heavy rain we have had over the last couple of years has moved a plug and allowed water to flow under the cave. This has eroded the lower levels and caused slumping. I think the NRW notices and warnings are a pre-emptive strike in case anyone is thinking of digging at the bottom. The entrance is fenced off at present to keep animals out, but humans can step over :-)

(I meant DCA, not DCC in an earlier post)

Dave
royfellows
9 years ago
"Carter" wrote:

Are there other letters to the one in the original post which is the same as the one I have received.
The only reason I ask is that it says NRW is aware that people have accessed the swallow hole and excavated materials.
I cannot find any reference to minerals .



Yes, and I have done a blooper as well. I read materials as minerals.

Question still hangs though, so what kind of materials do you dig out of the ground?
My avatar is a poor likeness.
rufenig
9 years ago
:smartass:
If you are "extracting a mineral" (limestone is a mineral)
it is a mine.
:smartass:

Puts tinfoil hat back on. :blink:
Ian A
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9 years ago
Nick,

I have stood at the top of the collapse and you can't get down and back up without equipment (presumably why a dog dropping down in there caused so much trouble). The whole hole is just "mud" and "gloop".


Tamarmole,

Sorry I think what I said is a little confusing. What I mean is; before the floor fell in, the cave/grotto had almost zero interest to cavers.

Now, yes, if it connects to OHA it is significant but I am not a "digger" (never done any digging anywhere - might have pointed a camera at one or two people digging though). BUT, it also has to connect in a manner which is passable (both of the other two caves right next to it taper too much) and it is still much more likely that Murphy's Pot (higher up) is the connection - well, the 1980's survey thinks so anyway.

:)

Ian
A door, once opened, may be stepped through in either direction.
royfellows
9 years ago
"rufenig" wrote:

:smartass:
If you are "extracting a mineral" (limestone is a mineral)
it is a mine.
:smartass:

Puts tinfoil hat back on. :blink:



Might only be if you sell it, some legal conjecture, (puts lid back on worm can)

There is some case history but don't think it was far enough up the legal ladder to be case law

My avatar is a poor likeness.
Peter Burgess
9 years ago
I imagine those who have been digging (or thinking of digging) in this location are acutely aware now of the SSSI designation and the published documents which detail the NRW management statement and the list of potentially damaging operations that are relevant to the caves. Here they are.

https://naturalresources.wales/media/638451/SSSI_0241_SMS_EN001f961.pdf 

and

https://naturalresources.wales/media/638441/SSSI_0241_PDO_EN001a1ac.pdf 

To help, here are the relevant extracts:

From the management statement:


Long-term Vision for the Site and Features:

3.7 The Alyn Gorge Caves, comprising three cave systems within the Carboniferous Limestone

The caves should continue to demonstrate how geological structure, lithology and water flow influence passage profile. The range and distribution of sediments deposited in the caves should also continue to provide evidence of the solution and stream processes that have occurred over time. A variety of calcite formations should occur throughout the caves, providing an insight into the history of the caves and the
contemporary environments. Access to the three cave systems, namely Ogof Hesp Alyn, Ogof Hen Ffynhonnau and Ogof Nadolig, should be available for legitimate study and research.

Key Management Issues:

4.7 The Alyn Gorge Caves, comprising three cave systems within the Carboniferous Limestone

Caving

Ogof Hesp Alyn is a ‘sporting’ cave and attracts many visiting cavers; 400 recorded man visits were made over a seven-month period in 1996. Although the North Wales Caving Club (NWCC) considers the cave to be fairly robust, with only minor damage from caving activities since its discovery, there have been no base-line studies against which to monitor the cave.

Ogof Hen Ffynhonnau is an easier and popular cave to explore. It contains calcite formations and a greater variety of cave sediments and is less robust than Ogof Hesp Alyn. Significant damage to some of the calcite formations has already taken place. Ogof Nadolig is the smallest of the three cave systems. It is an older fossil cave, which is unconnected to the present river drainage.

Though Ogof Nadolig is smaller and less well used than the two larger caves, it is more vulnerable. There is currently no effective control over who uses the cave and damage to calcite formations has taken place. Currently, the main threat to the cave fabric and environment comes from the wear and tear resulting from the movement of cavers and their activities. It is important that the more delicate and important formations within the caves are taped off following the baseline survey to be carried out by the NWCC.

Controlling access to the caves, education of visitors and taping off of the more sensitive areas will lead to less damage of the cave formations and conservation of these important cave systems.

At present there is no immediate threat, either directly or indirectly, from mineral extraction/quarrying. However, if one quarry were ever reactivated, consideration would need to be given over the use of explosives and the charges used so that damage from blasting to the cave system and its structures was prevented.

Activities on the surface above the caves or in their catchment areas need to be monitored to ensure that activities which might adversely impact on these underground systems are controlled. Incidents of influxes of diesel oil and dirty water to the caves have been reported within the past five years.



and from the list of operations requiring consent:

20. Extraction of minerals including peat, shingle, hard rock, sand and gravel, topsoil, subsoil, lime, limestone including limestone pavement, spoil and cave deposits.

24. Modification of natural or man-made features, including cave entrances and clearance of boulders, large stones, loose rock or scree and the battering, buttressing or grading of geological exposures and cuttings (rock and soil) and infilling of pits and quarries.

25. Removal of geological specimens, including rock samples, minerals, cave sediments and cave decorations.


NewStuff
9 years ago
I think the fact that it's been mentioned a number of times throughout the thread, that yes, people are aware it's an SSSI, and you can now stop your "finger wagging, naughty children" act, anyone in the area was aware before you decided to chirp up.

It's probably historical. I certainly know of no-one that's dug in the area, and I've not heard talk of it bar the original opening of the cave(s) (Pre SSSI designation). Given that at least one is a squalid cackhole that cakes you in gloop, logically it suggests that no work has been undertaken to make them any more pleasant.
Searching for the ever elusive Underground Titty Bar.

DDDWH CC
Carter
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9 years ago
Ian,

It was the 6 miles of cave I was wondering about.
Is that fact ?
Troglodyte, Luddite, Maybite.
Ian A
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9 years ago
It being a "fact" is somewhat subjective :confused:

The information comes from your past acquaintance and Graham's nemesis - none other than the esteemed Mr M M himself.

He has stated that "dye testing" demonstrates there is at least that much cave in the Alyn valley that remains hidden. I am pretty sure the testing was done when GCC and NWCC were one and one of the same club (before the GW/PA/MM sagas). If it was done back then, I would imagine GW would know about it too?

There does seem to be a lot of circumstantial evidence to support it but I doubt it could be said to be a "fact" until it is actually discovered.

:blink:

Ian
A door, once opened, may be stepped through in either direction.
Morlock
9 years ago
"400 recorded man visits were made over a seven-month period in 1996."

Very non PC.;D
Peter Burgess
9 years ago
The past is a different country and all that. Shame the details are not more up to date, but there's one hell of a lot more SSSI stuff there that is non-cave related for NRW to manage.
Peter Burgess
9 years ago
"NewStuff" wrote:

I think the fact that it's been mentioned a number of times throughout the thread, that yes, people are aware it's an SSSI, and you can now stop your "finger wagging, naughty children" act, anyone in the area was aware before you decided to chirp up.

It's probably historical. I certainly know of no-one that's dug in the area, and I've not heard talk of it bar the original opening of the cave(s) (Pre SSSI designation). Given that at least one is a squalid cackhole that cakes you in gloop, logically it suggests that no work has been undertaken to make them any more pleasant.



Thank you, "Same Old Stuff". ;)

I chose to post this mainly to inform those who are not familiar with the protection this site is supposed to enjoy. BTW, I think you and I have a great deal in common. Neither of us care a jot, what those we have no respect for, think of us. So there is no point in posting silly judgemental comments, apart from the fact I find them amusing.
Sweetie
9 years ago
From the description of the grotto and from other comments on this thread I'm assuming we are talking about the Leete caves near Devils Gorge? I popped my head in a number of years ago while out on a stroll. They don't go anywhere or connect to anything as far as I'm aware, therefore (as has been said a number of times already) they don't fall under the SSSI which clearly names 3 cave systems. I'm well aware of the fact the Leete caves lay within the vicinity of the "suggested" terminus of OHA. However, that is like accusing someone of trespassing when they're walking along a public footpath within the vicinity of your property.

Sink holes occur all the time, I very much doubt anyone has been digging there. Especially so close to a high traffic footpath.
Peter Burgess
9 years ago
https://naturalresources.wales/media/638421/SSSI_0241_Map0022df4.pdf 

.... then the management document and the operations that require consent are all relevant, regardless of whether the caves are named as part of the SSSI or not. Sorry - this is not a get out clause you have found. If the cave is not named in the designation, or in the management statement, it does not mean the cave is not included, simply that NRW have no management statement relevant to any cave other than the three mentioned. The operations requiring consent will apply to any cave within the SSSI.


royfellows
9 years ago
https://naturalresources.wales/media/638421/SSSI_0241_Map0022df4.pdf 

.... then the management document and the operations that require consent are all relevant, regardless of whether the caves are named as part of the SSSI or not. Sorry - this is not a get out clause you have found. If the cave is not named in the designation, or in the management statement, it does not mean the cave is not included, simply that NRW have no management statement relevant to any cave other than the three mentioned. The operations requiring consent will apply to any cave within the SSSI.




Yes Peter is correct on this, I have to deal with this sort of thing.

Off thread, but recently been informed that Dinas is a Scheduled Ancient Monument.
My avatar is a poor likeness.
Sweetie
9 years ago
OK, thanks clarifying. Happy to stand corrected :surrender:. Out of interest, what does a circle within a circle mean? Does this mean this area is excluded? Just curious
[img]http://www.aditnow.co.uk/Photo/Sssi_104633/[/img]

Carter
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9 years ago
"Ian A" wrote:

It being a "fact" is somewhat subjective :confused:

The information comes from your past acquaintance and Graham's nemesis - none other than the esteemed Mr M M himself.

He has stated that "dye testing" demonstrates there is at least that much cave in the Alyn valley that remains hidden. I am pretty sure the testing was done when GCC and NWCC were one and one of the same club (before the GW/PA/MM sagas). If it was done back then, I would imagine GW would know about it too?

There does seem to be a lot of circumstantial evidence to support it but I doubt it could be said to be a "fact" until it is actually discovered.

:blink:

Ian



It's total speculation then, this could be very misleading to any readers who aren't familiar with the area.
The dye tests you mention, were these the tests done by HDUM when they were attempting to seal the countless sinks in the river bed
I've spoken to Graham tonight and he doesn't remember any dye tests being done by us . Incidentally, G.C.C. and N.W.C.C. were never "one" club.
He was a bit surprised at all this talk of a nemesis and would like am explanation to what you meant by this and the "saga" between him, Peter Appleton and your friend M.M. would you care to explain what this was and why you felt the need to drop these names into your post
People need facts not speculation, opinion or misleading information.

Troglodyte, Luddite, Maybite.
Sweetie
9 years ago
:guns::guns::guns:
Carter
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9 years ago
^ ^ what do the smileys mean ?
Troglodyte, Luddite, Maybite.

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