Hi All,
NWCC have received the letter below from Natural Resources Wales (letter copied below in full). This relates to a cave rather than a mine, but anyone exploring the Alyn Valley area will want to be aware of this.

Alyn Valley Woods and Alyn Gorge Caves, Site of Special Scientific interest (SSSI)

As you may be aware, a swallow hole has opened up within a cave next to the River Alyn, just to the north-west of the Devil’s Gorge.

Over the past few weeks, two dogs and an owner have had to be rescued from the swallow hole. It is clearly, therefore, a risk to people’s safety within the Country Park.

Denbighshire County Council has been in contact with Natural Resources Wales as the cave and swallow hole lie within Alyn Valley Woods and Alyn Gorge Caves SSSI (and also with the Alyn Valley Woodlands Special Area of Conservation).

The SSSI has been notified for its semi-natural woodland, calcareous and neutral grasslands, a number of rare species and the geological interest of the cave system. This cave system consists of the three cave systems of Ogof Nadolig, Ogof Hesp Alyn and Ogof Hen Ffynhonau.

Natural Resources Wales is aware that people have accessed the swallow hole and excavated materials.

We would advise that your members should be made aware that it is an offence under s28P of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 (as amended) to intentionally or recklessly destroy or damage any of the flora, fauna, geological or physiographical features of interest.

Your members should also be aware that the cave is a known hibernation site for lesser horseshoe bats. Bats and their roosts are protected under the provisions of Regulation 41 of the Conservation of Habitats and Species Regulations 2010 (as amended) and Section 9 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 (as amended). It is an offence to kill, injure or disturb bats and or damage or destroy their breeding sites and resting places and or obstruct access to a place of shelter.

Natural Resources Wales is currently working with Denbighshire County Council to design and install grilles under licence to unsure the swallow hole is safe.

Once the grill has been installed and access can be controlled, we would be happy to meet with your members and Denbighshire County Council to discuss any possible future explorations projects you may wish to undertake. If permission was to be granted for exploration following construction of the grill, we would wish this to be open to all the caving groups to work together.

This letter has been sent to UCET, North Wales caving Club, Grosvenor caving Club, Crewe Climbing and Potholing Club, Cambrian Caving Council and the British Caving Association. Please feel free to circulate to any other cavers or caving clubs that are active in the Alyn Valley.

Yours Sincerely,

Raymond Roberts, Senior Geologist
Richard May, Conservation Officer

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Oh dear ..people I know don't like gates ...ho hum!

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Natural Resources Wales is currently working with Denbighshire County Council to design and install grilles under licence to unsure the swallow hole is safe.

I hope they ensure rather than being unsure :smartass:

Sounds like good news. I collect cave gates..

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Sounds like good news. I collect cave gates..

There are even people about who design, manufacture and even sell bat frying devices!;D

Natural Resources Wales is currently working with Denbighshire County Council to design and install grilles under licence to unsure the swallow hole is safe.

I hope they ensure rather than being unsure :smartass:

They will maybe need to insure, as said, people dont like gates

EDIT
More thoughts. Whats the minerals business, its a cave!
Reading the letter again, I think I smell politics

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Your smell of politics is not without foundation Roy.

This is an open topic and it would be improper for me to go into any detail. However; myself, Dave T and Stuart are already embroiled in the matter - you may have received a copy email from Stuart (I can send you a copy if you have not).

Ian

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Sounds like good news. I collect cave gates..

Laughed out loud in real life ;D

...Last time you had the police at your door Tony :angel:

(Still chuckling)

Ian

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It's a good reason not to try to get a mine or cave covered by an SSSI without careful consideration.

Chris.

Ian, yes I am in on the circle.

There is an old Chinese proverb:
"May you live in interesting times"

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It's a good reason not to try to get a mine or cave covered by an SSSI without careful consideration.

Completely agree.

Interestingly, it doesn't appear to be covered.

It is the case that the "area" is covered (as cited in the letter). However, there are many caves and mines in the Alyn valley and only three are specifically named as falling within the schedule (and this one is not one of them).

That being so, there appears to be an argument to suggest that this "cave" is not covered by SSSI.

.... Just a thought (I am not a legal expert)

:blink:

Ian

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In this case, 'we' appear to have an opportunity to work with NRW to gain access. I would advocate pursuing that route.

Chris.

any chance you can send me a copy please ? a friend of mine has issues with the way they have fenced off the entire crag ! not just the cave in question , they have put posts all the way along the landing spots if you were bouldering there , seemed a bit gunho to me or should I say completely unnecessary/ over the top ! 😢

It never ceases to amaze me how people who are not legal experts argue the strongest for what they believe, often against the advice of agencies whose very purpose requires them to have a good legal grasp of what they have been set up to do. Like it or not, NRW have a role to play, and, as far as I can see, are advising those with an interest in this site to take note of what they have to say.

Put the guns down, chaps, and think hard about what they are trying to tell us.

And, yes, I do have an interest in more general terms, as I am currently working towards doing some work within a SSSI on a mine site.

I don't see why you have to be a legal expert to object to are countryside being controlled by so called legal experts , if people didn't speak out against the man we'd be just like Korea ( puppets controlled by crazed control freaks ) :blink:

How did CROW come about?

Yes, Mr Solo puts it well, its "our" countryside. not "the" countryside.

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Objections are fine, but we have to remember that you can't dismiss something you don't like just because you don't like it.

In this case, 'we' appear to have an opportunity to work with NRW to gain access. I would advocate pursuing that route.

Chris, I completely agree and that is the route we/CCC are pursuing.

... a friend of mine has issues with the way they have fenced off the entire crag ! .....

All the fencing has been removed (by the rangers)

It never ceases to amaze me how people who are not legal experts argue the strongest for what they believe

Peter, I said this …..

.... Just a thought (I am not a legal expert)

I am also sure you will commend the approach ChrisJC suggested as well as my statement that this is precisely the route being pursued.

Objections are fine, but we have to remember that you can't dismiss something you don't like just because you don't like it.

But we can;

• Discuss it
• Debate it
• Call to account the person(s) imposing it
• Test it
• Challenge it
• Oppose it

As much as you say you can’t dismiss something just because you don’t like it; in equal measure, you don’t have to “just” accept something just because someone else says so.

;)

Ian

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Ohh... we can play Mine Cleudo!

It was a Grumpy Mine Explorer, With an Angle Grinder, in Less than a month!

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If I was from NRW and reading this (as I am sure they will), I wonder what I would be thinking now? And you wonder why you have so many contentious people constantly at war with each other in this area. Unbelievable.