waggonwayman
17 years ago
Any idea which mine ordered Thomas Saverys' 'Miners' Friend' ?

Waggonwayman.
JR
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17 years ago
I could well be wrong (in which case I'm sure someone will correct this) but as I understand it 'Captain Savery's miner's friend' was never used in any real sense at all. It (and Savery himself for that matter) profited from the quirks of the British patent regulations at the time. Since the Miner's Friend performed (theoretically) the same task (pumping water) as Newcomen's Atmospheric 'fire engine' Newcomen was compelled to include Savery in his patent.

Newcomen's engine was first used at a coal mine near Dudley.
sleep is a caffeine deficiency.
waggonwayman
17 years ago
http://www.aditnow.co.uk/documents/Personal-Album-176/Making-Water---Younger-2004.pdf 
states that one was order [and I presume at least tested] by a mine.

WWM
carnkie
17 years ago
I think you are pretty much right about Savery but I thought Necomens first steam engine was erected at Dudley Castle, Staffordshire in 1712. Although having said that in his book Trevithick says one was erected at Griff in Warwickshire in the same year.
The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.
carnkie
17 years ago
"waggonwayman" wrote:

http://www.aditnow.co.uk/documents/Personal-Album-176/Making-Water---Younger-2004.pdf
states that one was order [and I presume at least tested] by a mine.

WWM



Trevithick says that in 1702 Savery is said to have erected the first steam pumping engine in Cornwall but there are not many traces of its practical application. It had to befixed near the bottom of the shaft or within 30 feet of the level of water.
The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.
JR
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17 years ago
"carnkie" wrote:

I think you are pretty much right about Savery but I thought Necomens first steam engine was erected at Dudley Castle, Staffordshire in 1712. Although having said that in his book Trevithick says one was erected at Griff in Warwickshire in the same year.


I think there was a little poetic licence at play when Dudley Castle is mentioned it meant in sight of the castle (besides any other reason Dudley castle is atop a hill, not the place to put a pump). The actual site is unknown but is believed to be in the vicinity of the replica engine at the Black Country Museum.
sleep is a caffeine deficiency.
carnkie
17 years ago
You could be right but this from the Science Museum.

http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/on-line/energyhall/page3.asp 

Actually Trevithick could be nearer the mark.
The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.
Boggy
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17 years ago
heres a link to a surviving newcomen engine that henry ford took from oldham and preserved in his museum (possibly the oldest surviving one).
http://technology.niagarac.on.ca/staff/mcsele/newcomen.htm 
if its a hole explore it...
JR
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17 years ago
Thanks for that link carnkie. That was the view I was thinking of but couldn.t recall the book I saw it in. As I say Dudley Castle is very high up (the view of the castle in the background of the picture supports this) and a pump (particularly an experimental one) would not be located some fifty feet above the water table when an adit or two would suffice. The view in the picture is the basis for the supposition that the original was located at,or very near, the current location of the Burnt Tree traffic roundabout (about 200 yards from the site of the replica).
Never let it be said that we Blackcountrymen lack a sense of history!
Still we're not a lot closer to coming up with an answer to waggonwayman's original question are we?
:blink:
sleep is a caffeine deficiency.
carnkie
17 years ago
"jr48" wrote:

Still we're not a lot closer to coming up with an answer to waggonwayman's original question are we?
:blink:



I'm not sure we ever will be. I think he erected a test engine at some, as yet, unknown mine (will probably stay unknown). It was found to be impractical and not used.

Where is Griff anyway?
The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.
JR
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17 years ago
I agree. I think the closest we can get is probably here....
http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/on-line/energyhall/page6.asp 
and on the following page of the link
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JR
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17 years ago
Griff is here
http://maps.warwickshire.gov.uk/mapportal/mappage.asp?application=wccsmr&action=ftc&x=435792&y=289103 

The link at '6674' to the right gives a little more detail.

Also see here
http://www.irsociety.co.uk/Archives/47/Griff.htm  for more detail than you could shake a stick at !
sleep is a caffeine deficiency.
carnkie
17 years ago
Ta. Looks like Trevithick got his dates wrong. He said 1712 not 1716.
The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.
JR
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17 years ago
"waggonwayman" wrote:

Any idea which mine ordered Thomas Saverys' 'Miners' Friend' ?

Waggonwayman.



This is from the Wikipedia entry on Savery "A few Savery engines were tried in mines, an unsuccessful attempt being made to use one to clear water from a mine at Broadwaters in Wednesbury, then in Staffordshire.[2], and one was built to control the water supply at Hampton Court, while another at Campden House in Kensington operated for 18 years. the source is here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Savery 

I hope this helps answer your original question WWM.

:thumbsup:
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JR
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17 years ago
Yes I know I'm replying to myself here but I had a thought that I feel compelled to add.It's the location of a Miner's Friend in Wednesbury that got me thinking. You see Wednesbury is where the '9 yard' seam of the South Staffs coalfield broke surface. I remember as a child my Dad telling me that the graves in the churchyard where dug into coal.
Now while I can see that a plentiful supply of cheap fuel would be needed given the pump's prodigious appetite for fuel it makes no sense to me to go to the expense of erecting a pump where if a need to pump a mine existed the far more obvious and logical remedy would have been to sink a shaft elsewhere. After all Wednesbury was (and for the most part still is) built on over 30ft of coal (and is about 300 ft above sea level into the bargain).

Think I'll go away and lie down in a darkened room after that lot. :surrender:
sleep is a caffeine deficiency.
carnkie
17 years ago
I see what you mean. As I mentioned in an earlier post Trevithick mentions that in 1702 Savery is said to have erected the first steam pumping engine in Cornwall, of which he wrote thus in ‘Miners Friend’:-

“ I have known in Cornwall a work with three lifts of about 18 feet each, lift and carry a 31/2 inch bore; that cost 42 shillings a day. I dare undertake that my engine shall raise you as much water for eight-pence as will cost you a shilling to raise the like with your old engines in coal pits.”

I hope that makes more sense to you than it does to me because it’s not obvious from that that he actually had an engine in Cornwall and the ref. to coal pits is suspicious because none existed in Cornwall.

Which leaves us where exactly.
:surrender:
The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.
JR
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17 years ago
Quote:

Which leaves us where exactly.



In both Cornwall and the Blackcountry up to our necks in confusion perhaps ?
:blink:
sleep is a caffeine deficiency.
JR
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17 years ago
"carnkie" wrote:

I see what you mean. As I mentioned in an earlier post Trevithick mentions that in 1702 Savery is said to have erected the first steam pumping engine in Cornwall, of which he wrote thus in ‘Miners Friend’:-

“ I have known in Cornwall a work with three lifts of about 18 feet each, lift and carry a 31/2 inch bore; that cost 42 shillings a day. I dare undertake that my engine shall raise you as much water for eight-pence as will cost you a shilling to raise the like with your old engines in coal pits.”

I hope that makes more sense to you than it does to me because it’s not obvious from that that he actually had an engine in Cornwall and the ref. to coal pits is suspicious because none existed in Cornwall.

Which leaves us where exactly.
:surrender:



Could this confusion possibly be the result of the joint Savery/Newcomen patent and the term 'Miner's Friend' attained a generic quality (like Hoover for vacum cleaner). Could Trevithick actually be referring to Newcomen engines in Cornwall? Or are the dates wrong or that?
sleep is a caffeine deficiency.
carnkie
17 years ago
I don't think he is mixing them up. He goes on to Newcomen and says he erected an engine at Ludgvan-Lez (wherever that is) in Cornwall in 1720. He doesn't actually state that it was the first to be erected here. Probably just as well because Buckley says it's believed the first one was erected at either Wheal Vor or Great Work in 1716.
The only certain thing about all of this is that nothing is certain.
The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.
JR
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17 years ago
Yup. On the other hand we are talking the best part of 400 years ago. In perspective the civil war would be as nearly in memory as WW1 is to us.

Shall we put this one to bed? I think I may be beginning to obsess about Savery.
😮 😮 😮
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