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carnkie
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie Topic Starter

14 years ago

On the subject of copyright something I came across a couple of days ago. I was thinking of writing a snippet on atmospheric conditions and explosions in coal mines. I happen to have a very good American research paper on the subject written in 1957 for the The Geographical Review and © The American Geographical Society.

I e-mailed them to find out the score regarding use. Received a promt and very friendly reply stating no problems with using brief extracts but a reprint would be expensive at $50 per page!!! Please advise. As this would amount to $1000 I very quickly advised that brief extracts would be sufficient. I think a new approach is called for as I admit I find the subject of some interest. 🙂

The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.

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royfellows
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

14 years ago

Easy way out is to use their paper as an information source but write the article in your own words. You could put a reference to their paper at the end.

My avatar is a poor likeness.

carnkie
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie Topic Starter

14 years ago

Yes I was thinking along those lines Roy. I still think those fees are ridiculous for a 50 year old paper although I suppose the age isn't necessarily relevant.

The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.

simonrail
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

14 years ago

Following a similar line, I am most intrigued to find that many record offices now charge people to take images of documents with their own cameras.
We now have the technology to capture data with a camera then return home and spend hours transcribing it, possibly having spent much time and effort in travelling to the place.
Having to fork out perhaps 30p a shot is a 'flaming' cheek and another form of taxation. 😠

Yes, I'll have it - what is it?

royfellows
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

14 years ago

Breach of copyright is a criminal offence in this country under the Copyright Act, but only if for commercial gain.

Under any other circumstance redress would have to be through the civil justice system, which has a poor 25% approx sucess rate of securing payment after a sucessful action.

Off thread but there was a chap in Walsall who kept forming a string of new private limited companies as each one went to the wall owing creditors, he kept on trading from the same premises using the same employees.
The Companies Act 2006 came into force in April 2009 and attempts to end this, but I have not heard of any sucessful actions as yet.
I know a fellow who was in a husband and wife partnership and went to the wall owing half a mill. A day before bankruptsy he and is other half went into an IVA. The creditors have so far (5 years on) got about 8% of what they are owed and he drives a brand new Beamer.

Maybe I have had the wrong kind of friends in the past, or wrong kind of education.
I would not worry Mr Carnkie.

My avatar is a poor likeness.

JohnnearCfon
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

14 years ago

"simonrail" wrote:
Following a similar line, I am most intrigued to find that many record offices now charge people to take images of documents with their own cameras.
We now have the technology to capture data with a camera then return home and spend hours transcribing it, possibly having spent much time and effort in travelling to the place.
Having to fork out perhaps 30p a shot is a 'flaming' cheek and another form of taxation. >:(

Think yourself lucky! Gwynedd don't let you take your own photographs at all! :curse: :curse:

staffordshirechina
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

14 years ago

Doesn't copyright run out after so long?
I thought it was 50 years?

carnkie
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie Topic Starter

14 years ago

It varies from country to country and on specifics. I believe it's generally 70 years in the UK but I could be wrong as I'm certainly no expert on copyright law. In the US photos are generally accepted to be out of copyright prior to 1923 but that can be confusing as well and subject to a number of provisos.

The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.

Les W
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

14 years ago

The UK is a signatory of the Berne Convention on Copyright. All the time periods can be found here:

http://www.wipo.int/treaties/en/ip/berne/trtdocs_wo001.html

Article 7 paragraph (1) gives the general time period as 50 years from the death of the author.

Both the UK and the US are signatories of the convention so the copyright should be the same.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parties_to_international_copyright_agreements

I'm a very busy person

carnkie
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie Topic Starter

14 years ago

#10

No problem with that but as usual there are exeptions. In the US domestic work produced by federal government agencies cannot be subject to copyright. Again as usual there are caveats to this as for example if the work is supplied by an outside person or agency then the copyright is held by them.

An example is the Historic American Buildings Survey/Historic American Engineering Record/Historic American Landscape Survey Collection.

Publication and other forms of distribution: The original measured drawings and most of the photographs and data pages in HABS/HAER/HALS were created for the U.S. Government and are considered to be in the public domain. However, occasionally material from a historical society or other source is included in the photographs or data pages. These materials are noted by the presence of a line crediting the original source, and it may be necessary to receive permission from the owner of such material before it can be published. In all cases the courtesy of an acknowledgment is requested if material is used in a publication. Privacy and publicity rights may also apply.
Source: LoC.

And Wiki. For much more detail.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_status_of_work_by_the_U.S._government

The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.

Penrhynman
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

14 years ago

#11

"simonrail" wrote:
Following a similar line, I am most intrigued to find that many record offices now charge people to take images of documents with their own cameras.

Quote:

Caernarfon record office won't allow the use of cameras but do offer A3 colour photocopies at a very reasonable 30p. They are very helpful, even copying part of a 5ft by 2ft plan for me. It took 2 members of staff to handle the large original document.

Penrhynman

stuey
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

14 years ago

#12

Ordnance survey are similar.

I spent years putting together the ultimate surfers/coast guide to the whole SW Coast path with historical and geological notes. I walked the whole path in sections and revisited various bits under various winds/tides and explored a lot of adits. I had a book of 1:2500 maps I'd cut into A4 sections and a hardbound notebook....

I rewrote it about 3 times and has all ready to go to the press and then there was the minor problem of getting clearance for some of the maps, which I relied up quite heavily.

I can't remember what the fees were, but they stopped the whole project in it's tracks and it's over there on the shelf.

I found some incredible things and the book would have been the ultimate for those wanting to know about more about the coast, or to choose somewhere totally new.

I just ran out of steam after that. There was no "How about if I re-draw the maps, or put a massive OS logo on the front?" It was crippling.

I gather the AA did a similar book (but not so detailed in the 70s) and OS put them through the mill.

I thought about using old maps, but I gather copyright for maps goes back even further.

The only thing they facilitate are themselves.
:curse:

Les W
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

14 years ago

#13

Copyright on OS maps that have been published commercially are "Crown Copyright". Crown Copyright expires 50 years after the end of the year in which the work was published.

If you can get hold of maps over 50 years old then you could use them. It would be perfectly OK to update them yourself (so long as you didn't copy from a newer OS map 😉 )

I'm a very busy person

AndyC
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

14 years ago

#14

Hope you do not mind me asking a related question that I have wondered about for a while.

Many excellent books are full of photos, many acknowledged as from a record office etc. Let is take an example – “Gwynedd, inheritor of a revolution”.

How much does a record office (or any other party anyone knows of) generally charge for use of their materials?

I would have thought that a book such as this would only make a modest profit, which could easily be overtaken by significant charge for image use.

Been injured while at work and are not to blame?

Get over it.

Peter Burgess
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

14 years ago

#15

I was charged £50 plus VAT to use a photo from the BGS collection. That is the least they charge, and if the print run is large I think the cost rises.

rhychydwr
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

14 years ago

#16

Cwm Park is a copyright free zone.

Same with Crymych

Cutting coal in my spare time.

spitfire
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

14 years ago

#17

"Peter Burgess" wrote:
I was charged £50 plus VAT to use a photo from the BGS collection. That is the least they charge, and if the print run is large I think the cost rises.

I think that is disgusting. Isn't it about time a group of like-minded people challenged these prices. Every organization mentioned in this thread has been a public one in other words we own and subsidize them, and yet we are charged these ridiculous prices for what we are told belong to us in the first place :curse:

spitfire

lipsi
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

14 years ago

#18

It varies so much. Bewdley Library allowed me to photograph papers free as long as it didn't disturb other readers, and I was able to OCR the photos later.
Some years ago, the charity I worked for decided to go for a world record on the biggest happy birthday. The American owners of the song wanted to charge a fortune for people to sing Happy Birthday. It's Ok to do it singly, but not commercially. The copyright on the song keeps being renewed. Be careful what you sing.

Where there's a mine or a hole in the ground.
That's where I'm heading for that's where I'm bound
So follow me down Cousin Jack
(Grateful thanks to Show of Hands)

Penrhynman
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

14 years ago

#19

"AndyC" wrote:
Hope you do not mind me asking a related question that I have wondered about for a while.

Many excellent books are full of photos, many acknowledged as from a record office etc. Let is take an example – “Gwynedd, inheritor of a revolution”.

How much does a record office (or any other party anyone knows of) generally charge for use of their materials?

Gwynedd Archives quote £15 +VAT per reproduction. Their fees for copies of photographs, other than colour photocopies, are £11 + £11 P&P for up to 11" x 8".

Penrhynman

Tamarmole
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

14 years ago

#20

On the bright side the stuff is still inthe public domain. Given the current financial climate we ought be be praying that some idiot councillor doesn't twig that much material that we currently have access to has a commercial value. I have horrible visions of walking into the Cornwall Studies Library only to be told that they had to sell their volumes of Mining Journal.