Just a quick question, Old photos from years ago found in books, online etc...I presume we need permission from publisher to post them on this site, unless there is no copyright on them (ie permission given to freely circulate them)?
Only ask as I have access to unpublished photos (old) at work but is not clear on who took them or who owns copyright.
Other photos I have found in various out of print publications, but I guess these need permission from publishers?
Thanks!

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This is a very complicated subject but keeping it simple if you have have some old photos and nobody is claiming copyright you should be okay. Remembering the privacy laws of course.
Regarding books think 70 years. Online, well there is a lot of dodgy stuff anyway but it always pays to check. Regarding out of print, unless very old, yes they are normaly ©. Of course if the publishers are no longer around...........

Edit.
Actually there is no quick question about © 😉

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Here is the most up to date legislation. Bear in mind, if it does not refer directly to the original question asked above in this thread, sections of the act can be applied appropriately

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1988/Ukpga_19880048_en_1.htm 

NOTE; The definition of 'Artistic work' includes photographs

NOTE; The definition of 'Artistic work' includes photographs

That came up recenly on Wiki.

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Interesting ... somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but from reading the section regarding Crown Copyright, if the item is published commercially, then the Crown loses its copyright 50 years after - if artistic also includes maps then copying old OS maps is entirely within the law !

Can of worms successfully opened, methinks !

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There may also be issues relating to photographs that have been restored or repaired, where the copyright seems to be renewed.

This is apparently the case with a lot of the archive photographs of Dinorwic where copyright apparently rests with the Museum of Wales even though the photographs are well out of any copyright associated with the original photographer.

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Some old photos and maps have been digitised, tidied up and re published by those holding the original documents.
So is the copyright renewed? (Can of worms opened!)

Big collections of Cornish photos online (Studies library , Frith etc) make it clear what you can and cant do without permision,

Although many of these photos on these sites are shown by permission of Copyright holder, so I guess it is possible to contact the Copyright holder directly.

But then I have never heard of anyone being prosecuted for scanning in an old map (50 years +) and putting it online.
I'll try to err on the side of caution if I find anything interesting.
and will be reading small print in any books or on any photos.

Thanks.

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Although... I would find it odd if it were possible to tinker with a copyright-elapsed image and somehow become the copyright holder!

There are obviously large collections of archive pictures, but I slightly fail to see how the copyright period can be extended due to the purchase of the rights by a third party, unless there is a significantly large enough chance to the material in order to make it a new work.

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Continuing the can of worms one thing that has slightly puzzled me although I understand the reasons. If you upload a non © archive photo (which is perfectly reasonable) it's then portrayed as © to the person who uploaded it which is incorrect. It is still in the public domain.Obviously in normal circumstances this is okay because the person who took the photo is the copyright holder.
Regarding photos at the CSC or the RIC, most will be in the public domain (a correct attribution is normally required) but a little care must be taken if they have been lent from private collections.
An example of this from the US where all photos taken for the US government are legally in the public domain except on the odd o ccasion where they may have originated elsewhere. Say with a commercial company and been a part of their archives. Then, if they are still around, permission to use may be required. As the LoC point out, it's extremely difficult for anyone to prove © of a hundred year old photo.

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Although... I would find it odd if it were possible to tinker with a copyright-elapsed image and somehow become the copyright holder!

There are obviously large collections of archive pictures, but I slightly fail to see how the copyright period can be extended due to the purchase of the rights by a third party, unless there is a significantly large enough chance to the material in order to make it a new work.

As I understand it that is exactly the case! It came up on here in regard to a book that had been published then later republished (to do with Cornish mines)! It is okay to reproduce from the original book, but not the later work.

As soon as you, for instance, reproduce an old photo that reproduction is your copyright. However, the original print is still out of copyright.

As I understand it that is exactly the case! It came up on here in regard to a book that had been published then later republished (to do with Cornish mines)! It is okay to reproduce from the original book, but not the later work.

As soon as you, for instance, reproduce an old photo that reproduction is your copyright. However, the original print is still out of copyright.

Thus, in order to be copyright-free, I'd have to either scan an out-of-copyright book or scan an out-of-copyright photograph.

What I can't do is to scan an in-copyright book even if the photograph is out-of-copyright?

Wierd 🙂

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As usual, my head hurts

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JohnnearCfon wrote:

As soon as you, for instance, reproduce an old photo that reproduction is your copyright. However, the original print is still out of copyright.

That answers the point I made earlier in that case. So if anyone wanted to use the photo they would require access to the original if I'm reading you correctly. 🅱

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Vanoord,

No, you can scan an out of copyright book, photo or anything at all, and still have it remain out of copyright if you wish. You just need to declare your new work to be in the public domain. It is your right to do that with any copy you make of a copyright-expired work, if you wish.

But that is actually a bad idea, because others can abuse it. It is preferable to retain the copyright yourself, which will go to your successors for 70 years after your death, but licence it for use under a permissive licence, which may allow the public to make copies, but, for example, not allow commercial exploitation without your permission.

We have a bad situation where old-maps.co.uk has applied their new copyright on OS maps for which copyright (50 years as someone else said above) has long expired, and it is a nuisance to some users of this forum, because for most of the interesting maps, originals of which are copyright-free, they charge you an excessive fee for a decent reproduction of a small area. I have a few old maps and I intend, once I solve the scanning problem, that they will be available under a permissive licence. I would recommend everyone here to do the same as far as possible. That way, useful information will always remain free and available. If sufficient people find sufficient genuine old maps, and sufficient web hosting, nasties like old-maps will disappear.

A suitable permissive licence might be one of the Creative Commons variants, but it would be possible to use GPL, but the GNU Free Document Licence http://www.gnu.org/licenses/fdl.html  would be very good for documents including maps. The "artistic" licence is actually not very good. A licence which expressly perpetuates the freedom (for 70 years, when someone else can repeat the cycle) is best, as it will ensure that stuff which we need stays available.

Sadly a lot of copyrighted material which is interesting is long out of print, and there is a real risk that all available copies will disappear before the copyright expires. We can't do anything about that under present law. My personal view is that it should be free as soon as the publisher loses interest, i.e. when you can no longer order a copy from them, but I don't see that happening any time soon.

It almost goes without saying that we can't condone any illegal copying of things which are still copyrighted. That can cause serious legal problems!

Alan

JohnnearCfon wrote:

As soon as you, for instance, reproduce an old photo that reproduction is your copyright. However, the original print is still out of copyright.

That answers the point I made earlier in that case. So if anyone wanted to use the photo they would require access to the original if I'm reading you correctly.

Yes, that's it in a nutshell.

JohnnearCfon,

Yes, anyone who wanted to make a reproduction would either have to work within whatever licence you chose to apply to your copy, or get access to the original.

If you have not applied a permissive licence, normal copyright law covers your copy, so they can't copy that without permission.


Alan

Vanoord,


We have a bad situation where old-maps.co.uk has applied their new copyright on OS maps for which copyright (50 years as someone else said above) has long expired, and it is a nuisance to some users of this forum, because for most of the interesting maps, originals of which are copyright-free, they charge you an excessive fee for a decent reproduction of a small area. I have a few old maps and I intend, once I solve the scanning problem, that they will be available under a permissive licence. I would recommend everyone here to do the same as far as possible. That way, useful information will always remain free and available. If sufficient people find sufficient genuine old maps, and sufficient web hosting, nasties like old-maps will disappear.


Alan

I too have some old 6" os maps, most are 1950's vintage so still in copyright but the 1920s ones will be ok.
I'd not thought about it til I read your post but I just checked and Wikipedia have a section for scans of old maps.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Old_maps_of_Europe 
Unfortunately the UK bit is empty as yet.
Might scan/photograph mine and see if I can set the ball rolling.

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You might find your 1950 ones are okay.

2.1 Copyright Licence
Ordnance Survey products, mapping and data are all covered by Crown Copyright until the end of the period of 50 years from the end of the year in which they were first published. Ordnance Survey regard copyright infringement as theft of OS intellectual property and will take legal action to protect it.
The terms of the licence dictate that it is the responsibility of local authorities to ensure that they comply with the provisions of the licence.

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