Dolcoathguy
16 years ago
In a discussion with miner friend who said he remembered Aluminium being banned in coal mines, I have found some evidence on the net saying that aluminium on rusty iron can cause sparks, but also another account, stating that Aluminium is not a significant risk in a coal mine.
Is Aluminium still banned in coal mines and for what reason?
Thanks in advance!
Is it safe to come out of the bunker yet?
jagman
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16 years ago
Don't know
I do remeber when a couple of us were doing some colliery exploring with BA kit we were informed we must not use any aluminium kit for that very reason
Wormster
16 years ago
YUP!!

you're both right, aly and rusty steel do indeed make for dangerous bedfellows, what do you think thermite is made from???
Better to regret something you have done - than to regret something you have not done.
Buckhill
16 years ago
The use of aluminium alloys was restricted more by NCB "PIs" than by the M & Q Act and Regs.

This followed on from the Horden explosion of 1953 the cause of which was attributed (in all probability) to incendive sparking from the contact between rusty steel and light alloy. Initially the ban only applied to machinery on the coalface but later the list was expanded. Various articles were "prohibited" - but the list was neither complete nor consistent. Apart from machinery some of the banned items included: foil on chocolate bars etc; hand tools with alloy components; alloy levelling staves (but not, confusingly, alloy tripods :confused: ).

At present the use of light alloys is subject to recommendations from HSE. HMIM have published a guide "Pitworthiness Considerations" which advises that manufacturers should bear in mind the use of alloys in situations where rusty iron or steel may be found (and there's quite a lot of that in coal mines). The "Model Rules on Frictional Ignitions" advise that they should be avoided if possible and should not be used within 300 metres of the coal face.
ICLOK
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16 years ago
So why is my emergency kit in a sealed can from Markham colliery made of ally??? genuine question.... I have 2 of them. 🙂
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh Creeper!!!!!
Buckhill
16 years ago
If you mean the MSA self rescuer I always thought the case was stainless steel - never saw any sign of powdering or tarnishing on mine.
ICLOK
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16 years ago
doesn't feel like stainless... will nip up shed and check.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh Creeper!!!!!
jagman
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16 years ago
"ICLOK" wrote:

doesn't feel like stainless... will nip up shed and check.



They are stainless
tiger99
16 years ago
Wormster,

Your mention of thermite reminds me of what some conspiracy theorists claimed about the 9/11 atrocity, i.e. traces of combustion products proved that thermite demolition charges had been used to bring the buildings down, thus proving that the whole thing was indeed a conspiracy.

But what they forgot that the steel frame of the building almost certainly had surface rust, which, together with burning aluminium from the aircraft, would indeed produce traces of thermite combustion products. It would be very surprising if it were not so.

Now I doubt that you will get a sustained thermite reaction initiating with casual contact between aluminium and rusty steel. The thermite mixture they use for welding on the railways is actually quite hard to ignite. But as you are suggesting, there does seem to be the potential for creating sparks in freak conditions. I assume that it would be a localised thermite reaction, where the frictional heat between the two surfaces causes tiny hot spots, then the aluminium ignites locally, intensifying the spark. Between identical metals, there would also be hot spots, but no thermite reaction to boost the temperature.

However, steel on its own is notoriously good at causing sparks, in conjunction with other substances commonly found everywhere, such as quartz particles, which may be found in the floor and/or roof of the mine, but it does not participate in a violently exothermic reaction, merely mechanical abrasion, so the spark energy will be less.

It is interesting that where explosives are concerned, steel tools are banned, and brass or wood is used.

But aluminium and steel in contact in a damp environment will cause electrolytic corrosion (the voltage generated is insufficient to ignite anything), and aluminium has bad fatigue properties, so it would be a very poor choice for structural use in a mine.

I think that the ban on aluminium may be for multiple reasons, not just the possibility of causing an explosion by rubbing against steel. Thin foil, in particular, may be able to ignite if it shorted an electrical circuit which was otherwise within the intrinsic safety limits, but I don't know if it has ever actually happened.

Strangely enough, I was doing some electronic design for an intrinsically safe requirement some time ago, and being new to that, I went right through the relevant standards, BS, ISO etc, and found lots of things that we had to satisfy, but no mention of aluminium and steel at all. I was working to the highest levels of the standards, because it seemed prudent (it was for use in what is effectively an explosives magazine, although the possible vapour was nowhere near as easy to ignite as petrol or firedamp) and it was perfectly permissible for the case of our equipment to be aluminium while the structure it is mounted on is steel, and possibly rusty.

I am thinking that it would be interesting to bang bits of aluminium and rusty steel together in a dark room to see if any visible sparks are produced. But I don't anticipate much success. Of course, in an explosive atmosphere, it does only need the one in a million attempts....

But there may well be more to this than we yet know.

Alan

ICLOK
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16 years ago
Couldn't even find.... shed a tip... I bow to your better knowledge!

Regs ICLOK
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh Creeper!!!!!
Redwinch
16 years ago
Drifting off topic, but maybe a safety issue, recently a model engineer went into his workshop to smooth some rusty mild steel on a linisher, he had just started, when he was engulfed in flames and was hospitalised with severe burns. Turned out his son had used the same machine the day before to smooth some aluminium, a thermite reaction, not expected at all!!
Danger even in the garden shed! 😞
Still supporting Rampgill. last time I looked
spitfire
16 years ago
I know nothing of this subject at all, but I am almost certain that I've seen old Davy Lamps with an aluminium base. Could it be the case that they were used on sewer work or some other duty?
spitfire
JohnnearCfon
16 years ago
BT use (or used) Safety lamps too.
Mr.C
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16 years ago
"spitfire" wrote:

I know nothing of this subject at all, but I am almost certain that I've seen old Davy Lamps with an aluminium base. Could it be the case that they were used on sewer work or some other duty?


Not nessecarily, ali wasn't banned in the pits until the late 50s or early 60's IIRC.
We inhabit an island made of coal, surrounded by a sea full of fish. How can we go wrong.......
tiger99
16 years ago
Redwinch,

That is very interesting. A linisher with a coating of aluminium on the belt would give a lot of high speed contact between the aluminium and the iron oxide, far more so than the odd casual impact. But I expect that few people ever think about the danger.

Maybe it was some machinery in the coal mines where aluminium was intentionally moving at speed against rusty steel that was the cause of the problems. I wonder what that could be? The only mining machinery I have seen was all steel and cast iron, as far as I could tell. Something with a sliding action would be the most problematic, I think. I don't imagine that aluminium could be used in the working parts of a coal cutter.

The other aspect I forgot about earlier is that thin aluminium, if ignited by an electrical fault, may continue to burn, so cast iron or welded sheet steel would be necessary for high energy electrical equipment, of which there tends to be a lot underground.

By the way, welding in the workshop can be interesting if both metals are around. I made a mistake in setting the power controls on my MIG welder some years ago when welding aluminium, and it turned out to be on maximum power. It sprayed lots of white-hot aluminium about, which probably ignited as soon as it was out of the argon shield. One blob hit a piece of rusty steel sheet, and went straight through. I have not welded aluminium since, although not because of fear of that happening again. Unfortunately, I did not see it all happen through the welding mask, I only know from the hole in the piece of steel which I found afterwards.

Alan
lipsi
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16 years ago
Back in the 70s, I was working for Dowty Meco (conveyors) and had ro spend a fair bit of time underground. On my first visit to Lea Hall Colliery, I was at pit bottom, when I offered the Colliery Manager a piece of chewing gum. He went ballistic, telling me in no uncertain terms that it was classed as contraband, as it was of course wrapped in ally foil. I never made the same mistake again!
Where there's a mine or a hole in the ground.
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AR
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16 years ago
As I've always understood it, the thermite reaction does need a fair kick to give the aluminium enough energy to start grabbing the oxygen from the rust and thus setting the reaction in motion, but I can see the friction being enough to set it going in the linisher accident, and the molten ally having enough energy in itself in the welding case.

I remember seeing it demonstrated in a chemistry lesson at school (although I suppose the H&S gestapo have banned it from the classroom nowadays!), using a Barium Peroxide fuse to get it going - tabletop volcano! :devil:
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Buckhill
16 years ago
Quote:

I am thinking that it would be interesting to bang bits of aluminium and rusty steel together in a dark room to see if any visible sparks are produced. But I don't anticipate much success. Of course, in an explosive atmosphere, it does only need the one in a million attempts....



The tests done following the Horden explosion looked at various items from the face, alloy c/a pipes, rams and cylinders, roof bars, etc. (The face was a plough set up and these items were all light alloy). Steel props had marked smearing on the caps from constant rubbing against the alloy roof bars and the outcome of rock contacting all these was also looked at.

From 300 tests on 5 articles, in a 6.5% CH4 atmosphere, some 31 ignitions were obtained (just over 10%). In the case of ram cylinders this rose to 24 ignitions in 100 tests (2 drop heights) - a bit more than one in a million.

Before the Horden explosion SMRE had been looking at incendive sparking from light alloys for some time. The aftermath indicated a much greater problem than had previously been realised. The inquiry inspector recommended that until any given alloy was shown to be incapable of causing sparking that it should not be used in places where inflammable gas was a hazard.
cobba
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16 years ago
can well remember a clamp down on contrband-chewing gum wrappers,tin foil used as sandwich wrapping etc.mre @ bretby had done tests with ali foil on steel rails and got sparks
however the main electric cables carrying power around the pit had aluminium cores.when runaways occured and these cables broke,lots of sparks and some welding happened.
further to previous posts the self rescuers definately had a stainless steel outer cover and safety lamps were all brass and stainless.
could well explain why chewing tabacco was sold in a paper wrapper
cobba
stuey
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16 years ago
I can vouch that Thermite reactions haven't been banned in schools......

A sparkler is another good way of setting one off, if you haven't got access to magnesium powder and barium peroxide.

There are other pseudo thermite reactions which are much more fun than the old iron one. The less reactive the metal is relative to iron, the more exciting it's oxide reaction with aluminium will be. You do need to be extra careful with copper oxide. Tin is another one and so is Silicon... in fact lots of finely divided oxides will react with aluminium.

Please, FFS, if you are tempted to try other thermite reactions in your garden, be bloody careful as they are ferking dangerous

Put it this way, you don't end up with a nice pool of copper metal at the end of the reaction. It's more like armageddon!

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