Gwyn
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16 years ago
Lewis in Y Llyfr Enwau (see above) translates Pen-wyllt as straw-top hill. Wyllt seems a mutation of gwellt/grass.
Pen-y-cwm, head of the valley? Yes.
Pen can also be translated as end, as in Pen-y-cae, field end or Pen-y-bont, the bridge end.
derrickman
16 years ago
'Pen', from context, often appears to mean something like 'top' or 'high point' ( as in pen-y-graig ). 'Graig' is 'hill' so 'pen-y-graig' is 'top of the hill', more or less


'cairn' is either 'carnedd' or 'clegr' ( OS Trig Points are referred to as 'carnedd' although they are actually concrete plinths ) so 'jarnett', could be. Various pre-English dialects seemed to have lingered on into at least Domesday Book times, in various locations in the South Midlands and M4 corridor.


you could try this;

http://www.cs.cf.ac.uk/fun/welsh/LexiconEW_main.html 

I've had it as a link for ages, but never used it much.
''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change .... oh, I don't know, I've still got a lamp like that.
Peter Burgess
16 years ago
Interesting - high point or high place would make sense - the place is like an 'alp'.

I have read that wyllt is 'wild'.

It certainly is a wild place when the wind gets up!

The area is quite grassy, rather than boggy like the higher moorland. I suppose that is down to the limestone there. The area to the south, on the quartzite beds is also far wetter and boggier.
Peter Burgess
derrickman
16 years ago
http://www.tranexp.com:2000/InterTran?url=http%3A%2F%2F&type=text&text=wyllt&from=wel&to=eng 

I would be a bit cautious about using InterTran, in my experience it works best with languages like English, German and Russian, but it's usually ok with individual words
''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change .... oh, I don't know, I've still got a lamp like that.
RPJ
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16 years ago
In compiling Welsh mining word lists there will be some that differ materially between north and south Wales, reflecting the more general north/south linguistic divide.

The anthracite coal mining area of West Glamorgan and East Carmarthenshire had many specialist Welsh terms not used in the remainder of the south Wales coalfield. This reflects the different nature of anthracite ['glo carreg' = stone coal, relfecting its hardness] to bituminous coal and the resulting different working techniques and hence specialist vocabulary.

A couple of coal mining terms from south east Carmarthenshire that I can recall:

bradish = towing belt
sten [with a roof-shaped accent on the 'e'] = water jack
uwch ['sow'] = bell stone

As someone observed earlier on this thread, quite a few words are transliterations from English. They are however accepted as the correct Welsh version. English has been such a dominant language that numerous examples of loan-words for technical terms and new objects are inevitable. Welsh is certainly not the only language so affected - virtually every language has borrowed from English.

The widepsread adoption of Cornish terms in the field of non-ferrous metal mining, commented on in this thread, is a good example of how a technically dominant linguistic group results in their terminology becoming widely adopted.

At least one Welsh word with a strong mining connection was adopted abroad. Silica bricks for furnace linings were developed in the early C19 at the head of the Neath Valley using silica rock from the outcrop at Craig y Ddinas ['City Rock' - legend says that Arthur lies beneath it, awaiting a call to arms to battle the Saxons], worked from quarries that soon became mines. The trade name 'Dinas' [in Welsh, 'd' mutates to 'dd' after a vowel, or an auxilary vowel such as 'y', hence the slightly different spelling] became the generic name for silica bricks and silica rock. With the Welsh iron and non-ferrous smelting industries being internationally pre-eminent in the early and mid C19, the term was widely adopted abroad. The result was that the word for silica rock in French, German and Russian was, until the 1960s (when more technically precise terms were substituted), 'dinas'.

derrickman
16 years ago
one thing to beware of in comparing English and Welsh names, is that the two may be quite different. The previous example which variously gives gwyllt/wyllt as 'grassy' or 'wild' is a case in point.

I'd always understood 'burrow' in the sense of a tip, to be a variant of 'barrow' in the sense of a funeral mound, or possibly 'excavation'

cuare / quarry is another example of common transliterated variants like warranty / guarantee. These are words which have been transliterated in one direction or the other, and simply have two spellings with no reference to their origin.



it's also important to bear in mnd that the Cornish language is reckoned to have declined rapidly post 1600-ish, so that a lot of 'Cornish' mining terms are terms used by miners who lived between about 1750 and 1900, and may well not have spoken the language themselves. Terms for prehistoric, early historic or natural features - 'gossan', 'zawn' etc - may well be of Cornish origin, but most recognisably modern features were named by men who spoke English or in some cases, German.




''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change .... oh, I don't know, I've still got a lamp like that.
Vanoord
16 years ago
"Peter Burgess" wrote:

http://www.websters-dictionary-online.org/translation/Welsh/gwyllt 

This says gwyllt means wild. :confused:



Indeed - hence the car gwyllt http://www.gtj.org.uk/en/small/item/GTJ18032/ 
Hello again darkness, my old friend...
hymac580c
16 years ago
Have a look at -

http://www.saysomethinginwelsh.com/home/ 

Bellach dim ond swn y gwynt yn chwibian, lle bu gynt yr engan ar cynion yn tincian.
hymac580c
16 years ago
"ChrisJC" wrote:

"Morlock" wrote:



:lol: I once took a group of Venture Scouts up to Dinorwic, one of them was fluent in southern Welsh, what an eye opener when he tried to converse with the locals. 😉



I bet!, when Wales gets its independence, that will be the first fault line.
"I'm from North Wales and I'm Welsh"
"I'm from South Wales and you're not Welsh, I am"
etc. Will be worth a chuckle :lol:

I have heard a few stories about South Walians studying at Bangor, and having 'discussions' with the locals about ethnicity.

Chris.



Wales is bi lingual, but England beats it on all counts with a multitude of languages such as urdu, bangladeshi,chineese and all of the imigrants that have come over the last few years.
Go into the council offices in Birmingham and you will get information leaflets in all kinds of languages.
it is called multi cultural. 🙂
Bellach dim ond swn y gwynt yn chwibian, lle bu gynt yr engan ar cynion yn tincian.
Morlock
16 years ago
"RPJ" wrote:


bradish = towing belt



My southern welsh collier mate called brattice cloth "bradish", a local corruption perhaps?
spitfire
16 years ago
🔗Personal-Album-1228-Image-34341[linkphoto]Personal-Album-1228-Image-34341[/linkphoto][/link]
spitfire
ICLOK
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16 years ago
Thanks Spitfire, Gwyn and All....

Fascinating stuff this, and I have been well pleased in the main with responses... I think its nice to know the language of mining in its regional context and whilst anyone can argue over where words came from first or if the language is alive or dead what is important is it survives. I think its nice to look at a map of Wales / Cornwall and perhaps see beyond the names to what the name means or to hear a reference in an old document and have the facility to simply look it up! Its our language that gives us our flavour and identity and long may it continue...

Aye Up t'tha all! :thumbsup:
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh Creeper!!!!!
Gwyn
  • Gwyn
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16 years ago
I've just discovered that Y Termiadur is searchable on-line at:-
www.bangor.ac.uk/termiadur
hymac580c
16 years ago
Good to see some interest, have a good weekend.


http://www.idahowelshsociety.org/welshamerican.htm 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=G3rTGosA0jU&feature=related



Bellach dim ond swn y gwynt yn chwibian, lle bu gynt yr engan ar cynion yn tincian.
Morlock
16 years ago
Bi-lingual sign at Cwmystwyth.
🔗Personal-Album-1695-Image-34378[linkphoto]Personal-Album-1695-Image-34378[/linkphoto][/link]
:curse:

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