I suspect we're looking at Chamber 3 West, assuming that the photos were uploaded in the sequence they were uploaded in.

Of note are the bridge remains, including the curious "wall hung" bridge, which appears to have been more widely used than at first thought.

🔗Croesor-Slate-Mine-09-10-2005-Image-003[linkphoto]Croesor-Slate-Mine-09-10-2005-Image-003[/linkphoto][/link]

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Probably 3W - especially in view of the "mistiness" in the air, which is notably absent in chambers 1W and 2W - 3W being more closed in - especially at the top, although the plans are a bit vague, 1W and 2W do go up much higher, up to at least D, if not the Ventilation Level which is 50ft higher still.

Grahami

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Hmmm.... questions questions questions!

3 West seems only to have gone up to a little above A floor, yet those supports are above the level of the photographer, who can only have been standing on A floor?

Certainly one to add to the visiting list to confirm what's where :)

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Looks like a reflection in the water to me.....

Chris.

ALternatively could be the B bridge remains in 1W - I think it's photo 9 in the same series that shows the beams from end on. In a rush to go home so can't check now.

Cheers
Grahami

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Hmmm, that might make sense. If I recall correctly, the fog tends to decrease the further away you get from the incline - I'm pretty sure I've seen clouds at the top of 1 East!

On a different tack, presumably the ventilation level can be accessed from the top of the incline - or would it be from the shaft at the top of the incline, which would make it a rather more interesting problem to get to!

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Ok - more curious. Photo 3 and photo 9 are clearly of the same beams. Now since photo 9 is taken on the level, it must be in chamber 1W, either B (upper) or C(upper) or even D (upper) and viewed from the incline shaft. (unless skyhooks for getting across to 2 or 3 west at that level were avaialble, or maybe hot air balloons...)

Now the odd thing is that photo 3 clearly shows the remains of a cantilever side bridge along what I guess is the wall between 1W and 2W. AS far as I am aware (OK we didn't examine everything, and my 40watt car spotlamp & psu didn't come along untill years later) no one saw a side bridge in that chamber in 1978, but we did mark one along the wall between in 2W between 2W and 3W - I cannot find any notes, but looking at the plan where we marked it suggests that it was on A floor, and probably connected the A floor main bridge with the working platform at some time.

Fascinating - if the actual floor it is on can be identified, I'll add it to the plan.

Great stuff!

Grahami

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Ah, the joys of perspective!

If I recall correctly, Simon tends to upload photos in the order in which they were taken (he's away at the moment, but I'm 99.9% sure of this). Thus, it's easier to place things by looking at them relative to other photos, although of course it's possible for one to double back on oneself!

I'd agree that the supports are the same and after a bit of confusion sorting out which chain is which, I'd say the photo was taken from the window into A1W, looking at the wall between A1W and A2W.

Given that the wall bridge seems to be above the photographer in pic 3, that would probably put it on Floor B, with the roof-hung bridge on C - but again, the perspective makes this difficult to judge.

What's now causing me some thinking is: if the bridge is on B, how was access to it gained? If there are a series of bridges running along the walls, then these must have had access from the roof-hung bridges that cross the chambers. That, I suppose, means: (a) if the wall-bridge is on B, then there must be a roof-hung bridge on B to get to it; or (b) the wall-bridge is on A with the bridge on A being used to get to it.

What's becoming very apparent is that these wall-bridges were used in several places in Croesor to maintain access to the working platform higher in the chamber once the floor had been quarried away.

It also casts a bit of light on the presence of the tunnels under the vein in the first chambers to the east of the incline: it may have been easier to maintain access via a tunnel rather than bridge-building in each chamber - a wall-bridge would only be needed every few chambers.

Along the same lines, I'm tempted to go for a small boating expedition in A4E where there's a tunnel leading off the foot of the chamber, ie above the vein - I wonder if that was used for transport?

One final question that comes out of this is how the trucks were marshaled onto the wall-bridges? Given the lack of space, I'd suspect this was with small turntables at the junctions. Most curious!

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Tucked away inside the front cover of "Slate Quarries of North Wales in 1873" Ed. M.J.T.Lewis is "Sections of a typical Ffestiniog Quarry" ca. 1875-6

This rather nice diagram is worthy of enlargement and study as although combining features of several quarries, it shows main and side bridges rather well.

Grahami

🔗Personal-Album-54-Image-37196[linkphoto]Personal-Album-54-Image-37196[/linkphoto][/link]

🔗Personal-Album-54-Image-37197[linkphoto]Personal-Album-54-Image-37197[/linkphoto][/link]

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Meanwhile.... and on the same topic of location. I take it these two shots are looking in opposite directions - but exactly where? I think they are in the level between A6E and A7E - but each time I look at them I can't make up my mind which way - can you elucidate, Vanoord, since you took them ? 🙂 (or anyone else who knows, chip in!

Grahami

🔗Croesor-Rhosydd-Through-Trip-Image-35731[linkphoto]Croesor-Rhosydd-Through-Trip-Image-35731[/linkphoto][/link]
🔗Croesor-Rhosydd-Through-Trip-Image-35730[linkphoto]Croesor-Rhosydd-Through-Trip-Image-35730[/linkphoto][/link]

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Sorry for the delay, been meaning to reply to this since Monday... But it's been one of those weeks ;)

Right, this one is B1W looking upwards and is taken from the adit level at the window into the flooded chamber just round the corner from the transformer room.

🔗Croesor-Slate-Mine-09-10-2005-Image-003[linkphoto]Croesor-Slate-Mine-09-10-2005-Image-003[/linkphoto][/link]

These two:

Are between A4E and A5E. The first is looking towards A5E from A4E, the second is looking the other way. (I got my captions one chamber out on the last batch of Croesor Rhosydd Through Trip photos. I had the A4E down as A3E)

In the first photo you can just make out part of the overheard electric supply.

🔗Croesor-Rhosydd-Through-Trip-Image-35731[linkphoto]Croesor-Rhosydd-Through-Trip-Image-35731[/linkphoto][/link]

🔗Croesor-Rhosydd-Through-Trip-Image-35730[linkphoto]Croesor-Rhosydd-Through-Trip-Image-35730[/linkphoto][/link]

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I may yet wish to check those two images of the points - assuming that the chamber with the zip wire is in fact A4E, what would mean the points are between A5E (with the bridge) and A6E.

As per the dawning of realisation in the other thread, I need to go and check back from a fixed object such as the intact bridge!

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Tucked away inside the front cover of "Slate Quarries of North Wales in 1873" Ed. M.J.T.Lewis is "Sections of a typical Ffestiniog Quarry" ca. 1875-6

This rather nice diagram is worthy of enlargement and study as although combining features of several quarries, it shows main and side bridges rather well.

Grahami

🔗Personal-Album-54-Image-37196[linkphoto]Personal-Album-54-Image-37196[/linkphoto][/link]

Ah, excellent - that shows turntables at the junctions with the side bridges, which I think I had wondered out loud about!

One slightly wonders why the levels were not driven in the hard in order to avoid the necessity of installing bridges or having to leave rock bridges?

I suppose that an above-the-vein level would still require wall bridges, while a below-the-vein level would require some quite long levels be built out to start the roofing shaft.

That said, there does seem to be evidence of both the above in some quarries, with under-vein levels quite popular around Corris?

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Thanks for that Simon, I'll try and add trackwork to the plan where it doesn't confuse the detail.

The subject of where to drive the opening level was one which exercised the quarry managers' minds quite frequently. the convention (in Ffestiniog in the Old Vein) was to drive the opening level under the Clay Slant in the vein itself, once the level was sufficiently far advanced, they would go back and open the width of the chamber, start the roofing shaft etc. It was easier to drive the opening level in this way because the clay slant was easier to follow, being quite distinct and, of course, the slate rock was "softer." It had the obvious disadvantage that to maintain the traffic level, you either had to build bridges or drive extra levels through the walls from one chamber to the next instead. Driving levels lengthways through the walls was found to be a no-no - unless the wall had been left of extra width initially to accomodate it. (or there weren't many lower floors 🙂 )

The "Old Vein Hards" which lay above the Clay slant (they had various names in different quarries) were somewhat variable in thickness, and, as their name suggests, were "harder" than the slate vein. They were thus more difficult to drive a level through, it was also more difficult to get a good line without a distingushing slant. One way was to find the slant at the top of the hard and follow that- which meant possibly long levels back through the hard to find the clay slant for each chamber. The level in the hards had to be driven so as to give sufficient thickness between the clay slant and the level to support it - it was difficult and more expensive to drive levels in this way but it WAS done. Floor 3 New Vein in Oakeley is/was an example of this approach, the New Vein Chert/Hard being strong and not exceessively thick in that area.

Under vein levels, really levels under the underlying hard, were occasionally used, but the problem with them was that operations on the working floor of the chamber tended to block the access!

The Corris area is different because the inclination of the vein is styeeper and the cleavage plane also lends itself to under-vein levels.

Grahami

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Indeed: I guess the requirement to follow the vein and get slate out as quickly as possible probably over-rode any desires to keep transport running smoothly when a further dozen chambers had been developed.

I'm always a little surprised at how quickly some quarries were developed, Cwmorthin in particular.

There's always a temptation to believe that production in many mines occurred in a gradual manner from around 1850 until the Second World War, when in many cases the majority of work was undertaken in two or three decades of furious development, occasionally interspersed with collapses of both the roof and finances.

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Indeed: I guess the requirement to follow the vein and get slate out as quickly as possible probably over-rode any desires to keep transport running smoothly when a further dozen chambers had been developed.

I'm always a little surprised at how quickly some quarries were developed, Cwmorthin in particular.

There's always a temptation to believe that production in many mines occurred in a gradual manner from around 1850 until the Second World War, when in many cases the majority of work was undertaken in two or three decades of furious development, occasionally interspersed with collapses of both the roof and finances.

If you have a look at the two plans I've uploaded, you can see some of the horrible variety of access methods in Oakeley New Vein and for Q and R the development times for the chambers. Now all sadly deep beneath the waters....
http://www.aditnow.co.uk/documents/Oakeley-Slate-Mine/Q-and-R-Floors.pdf 
http://www.aditnow.co.uk/documents/Oakeley-Slate-Mine/central-new-vn.pdf 
(The description for the latter contains some commenst on what the plan shows.)

Still thinking about x-sections for Croesor - I've produce an outline to work on, will have to see if I can get any time to myself to produce them - not computerable (?) I'm afraid, has to be hand doodled to begin with, then scanned...

Cheers

Grahami

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I was about to start a new thread thanking you for uploading the new plans that you have, yesterday and today. They are all very interesting.

Am I right in interpreting the Arches/K Trwnk incline plans correctly. They appear to show the drum house built on a higher level connected remotely by rope runs. As that seems to have been the case for quite a number of years, that is an incredible bit of planning ahead! The planning seems to have been outdated as I see they later placed the drums one level higher! :oops:

Have I interpreted that correctly?

Thanks again for uploading all of them.

I presume you are talking about the arches incline ?

Originally there was a steam incline in a chamber (ca. 1870), lifting from H to G which you can see in the 1887 diagram - the "Ashton" Incline - thought to have been worked by an Ashton-Frost(?) steam engine.

This was replaced by an incline on the site of the later Arches incline, with its drum, engine and boiler house on G floor sometime between 1870 and 1874. The incline and the engine house were wrecked by falls from the bon above the incline (more than once) so a new engine, boiler and drumhouse was built as shown in the 1887 diagram on floor DE with the ropes running down to G over supports with pulleys on.

Slabs were raised from G to DE by the G Water Balance incline and from G to Bonc SIafft by the vertical water balance. The former lasted untill the 1920's when it was abandoned and the Arches incline tracks extended up to DE. This followed the wreck of the vertical balance. However, there was insufficient space to work a conventional crimp with the ropes coming directly off the drums, so the ropes were taken off the drums the opposite way and sheaves constructed at the same level as the drums but on the rockface behind the engine house, the ropes then passing beneath the drums to the crimp.
Sadly no photo seems to have survived showing clearly the trackwork under the drums - one can guess at the employment of turntables, or the usual impossibly tight curves!

I didn't really want to waylay this thread with Oakeley - so if more discussion is forthcoming, we'd better start a new thread!

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Ah, so it was done of necessity (due to falls from above) rather than forward planning! Thanks Graham.