Kellow's 1898 Hydraulic Drill 1 (photo)· Page 3

Ty Gwyn
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12 years ago

"royfellows" wrote:
It would be no surprise to me if the photo was indeed Talybont but deliberately captioned and used by May as promotional material, in order to try and raise share capital.

Good point,as they were certainly not against telling phibbs back then to raise capital.

Ty Gwyn I cannot answer your first two questions as i have no information on that, but the double width bogie was necessary because the drill was such a beast to control

Not the Double width bogie,Why the double track,?
One thing that comes to mind,with the size of the roadway needed for this drill rig,that`s one hell of a muck hole to clear,when fired,correct me if i`m wrong,i doubt they had eimco`s back then,so all on the shovel,hence a double track road for more efficient clearance.
Another point,if as been said,this drill rig cannot be turned around corners,hence my question to its size,it would have to be pulled out to the surface,before firing each round,and given the length of the Pryse level,that kind of counteracts its efficiency.
Not being up to the mark regarding metal mines,i could be wrong,but the normal road gauge seems to be around 2ft or less,giving the double track,with clearance between tracks to be around the 4ft 6in mark.
I reckon they were shunted into short side roads,allowing extra width on turns to the gauge is the norm,to much,and the wheel will fall in,not enough,and the outside rail will push over.

rufenig
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12 years ago

#42

Graigfawr wrote
Close examination of the 1946-47 vertical RAF air photos formerly held by Welsh Office and now held by RCAHMW might provide some clues - when I last examined them in the late 1980s, I recall the surface tramways could be seen to be intact over much of the mine - the site was much more intact than most current mine explorers remember it. Its just possible that a hitherto unsuspected large trial level might be discerned.

A close examination of this "28th May 1948" (of which I have a large A3 print )
shows no obvious workings that are unknown. The print covers all the mine including Copa hill but little south of the river.
I can not see what would be a large section of double track.
So still no clues.

Manicminer
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12 years ago

#43

I don't think it was that big. If the track gauge was 18 inches then I estimate the base to be about 4 foot wide or if the track was 24 inches then I would estimate the base to be about 5 foot wide.

Some of the adit levels around Dolgellau were driven at a generous 10ft x 10ft a decade or more before this and were mucked out by hand.

At the end of the day the base was merely to carry the drill and if anchored properly then I can't see why you couldn't drill at an angle if need be, so I don't think the tunnel/level had to be straight.

Gold is where you find it

royfellows
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12 years ago

#44

"Ty Gwyn" wrote:

Not the Double width bogie,Why the double track,?

Sorry missed you here. You mean why not a just a single wide track?
Well, tubs would be of standard gauge so double track would accommodate the special Kelldrill bogie plus the standard tubs
My best guess

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Ty Gwyn
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12 years ago

#45

"royfellows" wrote:

"Ty Gwyn" wrote:

Not the Double width bogie,Why the double track,?

Sorry missed you here. You mean why not a just a single wide track?
Well, tubs would be of standard gauge so double track would accommodate the special Kelldrill bogie plus the standard tubs
My best guess

No,i`m afraid you missed me again,
Like i mentioned earlier,unless the double track was for the swifter clearance of the fired down muckholes,filling 2 drams side by side,there would be no use for the other inside rail,for the full distance of the level,just make a double partin where need be, to store the empty drams when mucking out.

royfellows
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12 years ago

#46

"Ty Gwyn" wrote:

"royfellows" wrote:

"Ty Gwyn" wrote:

Not the Double width bogie,Why the double track,?

Sorry missed you here. You mean why not a just a single wide track?
Well, tubs would be of standard gauge so double track would accommodate the special Kelldrill bogie plus the standard tubs
My best guess

No,i`m afraid you missed me again,
Like i mentioned earlier,unless the double track was for the swifter clearance of the fired down muckholes,filling 2 drams side by side,there would be no use for the other inside rail,for the full distance of the level,just make a double partin where need be, to store the empty drams when mucking out.

Right, OK then, what about this

Dead straight level, double track, high speed driving with the Kelldrills, ... an automated system?

I think you have put me onto something here.
At Talybont the mill was down slope from Pryces Tunnel, I cant google earth it to check alignment cause its in trees through, the steam engine could have played a part in it as well.
More frustratingly there absolute Jack about this operation in the Mining Journal.
Off topic but the company blew £5K on driving for about 40 tons of ore and Clutterbuck (see the plans) was an independant mining engineer brought in by the shareholders to see if there was actually any economic reserves because they wanted even more money to put a 60 foot incline rise up from Pryses into Air Shaft.
Clutterbuck found lead running at half a ton per fathom, barely a half inch rib of ore, and about half the break even point.

The shareholders were London solicitors, accountants, clergy etc who had possibly never even set foot in Wales never mind visited the mine. Those who had money to loose but in so doing created work for those who needed it.
:lol:

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Ty Gwyn
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12 years ago

#47

"royfellows" wrote:

"Ty Gwyn" wrote:

"royfellows" wrote:

"Ty Gwyn" wrote:

Right, OK then, what about this

Dead straight level, double track, high speed driving with the Kelldrills, ... an automated system?

I think you have put me onto something here.
At Talybont the mill was down slope from Pryces Tunnel, I cant google earth it to check alignment cause its in trees through, the steam engine could have played a part in it as well.
More frustratingly there absolute Jack about this operation in the Mining Journal.

Looking at your plan of Talybont,every so often on the Main level,there are nicks in the sides,most likely Manholes,for firing,and passing places to avoid moving drams,but i reckon they are also shunts for the Kelldrill,as the distance to move the drill back to the surface before firing would be restrictive to the operation,
Imagine,once the drill has been shunted back into a side road,the driveage is fired,ready for mucking out,empty drams brought on, this double track ,you`d have 2 drams on top of the road being filled,empties would have to be stored in previous shunts used by the Kelldrill,or otherwise the mucking out is on stop till these 2 drams have been tipped and returned to the top of the road.

Another possibility,is the one road for empties and the other for full drams,converging near the top of the road,for free access for full drams exiting,with the double track being extended,and a new partin layed every so often.

Its just an expensive way of doing it,as a single track,with a proper double partin for the empties would have attained the same productivity,automation,was only as quick has a man could fill a dram,as long as there were plenty of empties in store.

Any idea how the Mine worked,was the Kelldrill pulled in by Horse`s or was rope haulage employed?

The Mill below as you mention,most likely the empties were pulled up with the full drams being lowered,or was there a shute down to the Mill?

Is the other entrance to the Mine open?

royfellows
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12 years ago

#48

Just to avoid confusion Talybont is on the website under its alternative name of Alltycrib where there is quite a bit of history. It is the subject of a book I have written, yet to be published.
There is a dearth of information about Talybont Lead Mines Ltd, although I have the company papers from National Archives.
I think I will convert them to pdf and upload them, they are of some interest.
If you look at the 1888 mine plan you will see the deep adit driven as a long crosscut from the Wern, at the end of the first straight section is what appears to be a bit of a manhole, this actually workings on south lode that connect with a surface shaft, the current means of entry. None of this is shown on the plan. The level then continues to North Lode where there is the Engine Winze sunk slightly to the north to pick up the lode at depth. The adit then follows North Lode in a westerly direction. There are working also to the east but again not shown on the plan.

I think that there was a lot of speculation about a 'missing' ore body on South Lode, the lodes are heavily thrown about by the powerful Alltycrib Fault, most of the ore obtained came from South Lode yet a whole length of it is barren at adit level.
To complicate matters any work from deep adit was not possible as there was nowhere to dump spoil at the Wern.

Pryces Tunnel was a bold venture and in my opinion it was mainly a gamble to try and locate the missing ore body, with its ultimate objective being to reach Air Shaft AKA Felix's where there were known reserves which it was expected would at least repay the cost of drivage. The Kelldrills were 'new technology' at the time and part of the 'sell'. I think the photo was probably used by TBLM and May as promotional material, who knows, but I am convinced the photo is Talybont.

Pryces Tunnel did in fact reach its objective but as I have said, they only got about 40 tons of ore out, it never connected with the pre existing workings following Clutterbucks revelations, and is therefore a blind heading.

Before forestation I am told that it was possible to trace remains of a tramway down from Pryces Tunnel to the mill.
The mode of operation is unfortunately all speculation.

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royfellows
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12 years ago

#49

Re Talybont, (Alltycrib)
I have uploaded all of the plans, and the 1910 company's papers.
I got all of this stuff together for my book, but when it will ever be published is anyones guess, so I may as well let some of my research material be available.
I have the company papers for two other companies, the 'Joseph Fell' company and the 'Liverpool Company'. The latter included a useful inventory. I will get these done in the next week or so.

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Ty Gwyn
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12 years ago

#50

Thanks for the info Roy,
Beings you mention Pryses level is a dead end,on the 1912 plan,there are workings ,with another entrance,
Presumably these are above/below Pryses level?

royfellows
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12 years ago

#51

Yes correct.
The workings above are those accessible from Wilkinsons Level. On some plans shown as "Wilkins" but correctly named after the Managing Director (T A Wilkinson) of the The Welsh Potosi Company (1854 – 1857) which worked the mine along with Esgair Hir. The is a mention by George Borrow in his book about a visit to the latter.
The workings above as mentioned above are all cut by Air/Felix's Shaft, but this shaft was never sunk to deep adit and as I have said a 60 foot incline was planned to connect Pryces Tunnel with it.
The only shafts that connected with deep adit are, from the portal, Air Shaft (a different one) the current access to DA, and Western Engine Shaft. A lot of workings are not shown on the plans, (what else is new?) including the important Bushells level which was the main working level of the mine before the driving of the 1839 deep adit from y Wern. This is about 90 feet above deep adit and follows the North Lode.

The whole thing is so seriously intriguing when you get into it, the mine, its history, everything.
There are no early records but excluding the work of the Elizabethans the mine only produced about 2000 tons of ore.
Sorry about taking it all so far off thread.

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davel
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10 years ago

#52

Rewakening an old thread ...

"JonK" wrote:
Regarding Adrian Barrell's Kellow File I know that Adrian has always been keen to share his researches with interested parties so I will contact him to see if he minds parts of it being uploaded to this site.

http://www.aditnow.co.uk/Community/viewtopic.aspx?p=160102 ).

Adrian has given me an up to date copy of his 'Croesor File' and has asked me to create a website for the material in it. However, he's also asked me to delay on this until at least this time next year so that the online availability of the material does not affect sales of the autobiography. (I will need to discuss this with the publisher as what I can publish may depend on the agreement she has with Adrian.)

Dave