Gwyn
  • Gwyn
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17 years ago
Vanoord, did you ever find out what these unidentified objects are?

Photograph:

🔗Cwmorthin-Floor-4-05-01-2008-Image-012[linkphoto]Cwmorthin-Floor-4-05-01-2008-Image-012[/linkphoto][/link]
Vanoord
17 years ago
Not a clue!

We think they're some sort of wedge - there seemed to have been some wear on the left-hand bottom corner compared to the right-hand bottom corner which seemed mostly untouched.

My suspicion would be that they're in some way related to the tramway track, but Merddinenrys disagrees - and heknows a lot more about it than I do!
Hello again darkness, my old friend...
ChrisP
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17 years ago
Just thinking aloud here... there was a company by the name of Howard which made narrow gauge locomotives, and although these were not used in Cwmorthin, if Howard also produced wagons, prehaps these could have been used in Cwmorthin?
Other possibilities could be related to drilling or lifting :confused:
hcd563
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17 years ago
Howard did make wagons, although I don't think they were anything like as popular as say Hudsons. There was also the remains of a Howard loco in the collection that used to be at Gloddfa Ganol but I don't know if it had local connections.

Martin
JohnnearCfon
17 years ago
Howard skip wagons were used at Rhiwbach Slate Quarry. In fact the "homebuilt" loco made there utilised a Howard skip chassis and wheels.
Vanoord
17 years ago
Hmmm.... was Howard a foundry that made locomotives or specifically an engine builder?

I might hazard a guess that these are something made for Cwmorthin by Howard, hence the inscription?

Having found my notebook with the scribblings of the Floor 4 layouts, the size of these objects is about 4 1/2" long with the sides being about 1 3/4" each. The 'upright' side is slightly narrower than the base (ie that with the name on it).
Hello again darkness, my old friend...
JohnnearCfon
17 years ago
I don't know that much about Howard to be honest. They were based in Bedford. They made small industrial diesel locos and wagons. Not sure if they made prefab type track as well. They did make a few wagons for the Lynton & Barnstaple Railway too. They must have been somewhat larger than their usual products!
Gwyn
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17 years ago
Or useful, multi-purpose offcuts from wagons going for scrap?
LAP
  • LAP
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17 years ago
I know practially nothing about rail tracking, but as Vannord suggests these look like they may have been once attached to sleepers, but the fact that the miners left them there and no others of the same sort are lying around rules out that idea (Oh yes - and they're much the wrong size for a Cwmorthin rail track)

Sorry if my idea is incorrect, as I say I'm definatly no expert on the subject.
Kein geneis kanaf - Cain gnais canaf
Byt vndyd mwyhaf - byth onddyth moyav
Lliaws a bwyllaf - Líows o boylav
Ac a bryderaf - ac o boryddarav
Kyfarchaf y veird byt - covarcav yr vairth
Pryt nam dyweid - poryth na'm dowaith
Py gynheil y byt - Pa gonail y byth
Na syrch yn eissywyt - na soroc yn eishoyth
Neur byt bei syrchei - nour byth bai sorochai

JohnnearCfon
17 years ago
JohnnearCfon
17 years ago
I wonder if we have been "barking up the wrong tree" when it comes to Howard? There is nothing to say that it is the same Howard that the above posts (including mine) refer to.

When LAP refers to "attached to sleepers" I assume he means rail. If that is the case it would be plateway rail. They look a bit short for that and don't appear to be broken off bits either.

On looking at the super dooper large version of the photographs there appears to be some kind of marking along one edge almost like symetrical diagonal scratches meeting in the middle as a chevron (hope that description makes sense), could they be of importance in determining their use?

It's no good Vanoord, you are going to have to move the other one and take more photos. If you take a print of the existing photo you should be able to replace it (them) in exactly the same position when you have finished.
hymac580c
17 years ago
I would think there is a strong possibility that they are simply just bits of scrap metal which were the right size and shape for getting a derailed wagon/loco back on the rails, or used as a sprag (parking brake). After doing its job they would be left nearby possibly for reuse. But left there and forgotten they were. You would use and improvise with whatever you could find to do a specific job, as a trip to the suface for getting an item would be a pain in the butt I would imagine.
Bellach dim ond swn y gwynt yn chwibian, lle bu gynt yr engan ar cynion yn tincian.
JohnnearCfon
17 years ago
Yes, I think that is quite a likely answer as to there presence there. I wonder what they were part of originally though?
hymac580c
17 years ago
I think it would be extremely difficult to detect exactly as to the original purpose of the items. We can only speculate and guess. They would be steel or iron angle section parts of some old machinery . Howard might be the name of the foundry, fabricator or make. It has got to be a part of something originaly built at least 80 to 100 years ago.
Quite fascinating to just imagine them being used for the last time many years ago. And by whom? Then just left where they were. Lost in time.
Bellach dim ond swn y gwynt yn chwibian, lle bu gynt yr engan ar cynion yn tincian.
Gwyn
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17 years ago
I'm much inclined to agree with you Hymac. Only cut for a purpose and measure thrice. Never throw it away, it might be useful for other, future purposes. Both objects seem to fit that criteria! Put them down over there...
Vanoord
17 years ago
"JohnnearCfon" wrote:

...there appears to be some kind of marking along one edge almost like symetrical diagonal scratches meeting in the middle as a chevron



Simon's pic shows this off better than mine:

🔗Cwmorthin-Floor-4-05-01-2008-Image-001[linkphoto]Cwmorthin-Floor-4-05-01-2008-Image-001[/linkphoto][/link]

The grooves are angled inwards from the bottom towards the centre and the pattern is repeated on both sides. The left hand front edge (of the back one in the picture, if you will) is worn away whereas the right hand edge is not.

My guess would be that this wear is the result of the object being driven into a gap, thus creating the wear. The direction of the grooves would help to push the object in, but once it got beyond halfway, the direction of the grooves switches, which might help pop the object out of whatever it had been pushed into.

My guess would be that this is some sort of wedge to go between a sleeper and tramway rail?
Hello again darkness, my old friend...
JohnnearCfon
17 years ago
Whilst steel "keys" were common on (later) standard gauge railways, I do not know of them on Welsh narrow gauge railways.

Do you have the sizes of them?
Vanoord
17 years ago
"JohnnearCfon" wrote:

Whilst steel "keys" were common on (later) standard gauge railways, I do not know of them on Welsh narrow gauge railways.

Do you have the sizes of them?




Having found my notebook with the scribblings of the Floor 4 layouts, the size of these objects is about 4 1/2" long with the sides being about 1 3/4" each. The 'upright' side is slightly narrower than the base (ie that with the name on it).
Hello again darkness, my old friend...
JohnnearCfon
17 years ago
Did you make a note of what type of track was in use on that level? Was it T rail with cast iron chairs? T rail let into grooves in wooden sleepers? Flat bottom rail spiked onto sleepers? Bridge rail? Photo 15 seems to indicate T rail let into slots in wooden sleepers. Not sure how those "angle pieces" would work with that, or others come to that.
hymac580c
17 years ago
These objects were an interesting find, but have a look at what this fellow here found. A little bit off the subject but still he was dam lucky I say. -
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=CNz3A-cVa_c&feature=related
Bellach dim ond swn y gwynt yn chwibian, lle bu gynt yr engan ar cynion yn tincian.
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