crickleymal
12 years ago
"tomh" wrote:

Perhaps he could campaign and do something useful like getting potholes filled in.



Yeah but then you'd upset the cavers.
Malc.
Rusted and ropey, Dog eared old copy
Vintage and classic or just plain Jurassic
All words to describe me.
Cat_Bones
12 years ago
Not an especially constructive contribution I know, but this bloke seems like a complete prick.
justin205
12 years ago
Mine safety positioning paper

This paper presents the view of Dave Webster of Perranzabuloe Parish Council – it does not represent the consensus of the parish council’sviews, as that has not yet been determined by debate.



Background

Following a fatal accident on the beach in 2010 the Parish Council commissioned a report on the hazards presented by mine workings in Perranzabuloe particularly on Perranporth Beach. Taken by itself the report made recommendations to close certain workings.

However in broader discussions with the representatives from the Police, Coastguard and Lifeguard the consensus of opinion is that a wholesale closing of mines and caves is impracticable and may be counter productive and increase risks.

The key points of the argument against closing mines and adits are:

1. Fail-unsafe
a. Any remedy must fail in a safe way. If a barrier fails by rust , wear or vandalism it may be possible for a child to enter, become trapped and be beyond rescue of an adult.

2. Completeness.
a. It is not possible to prove that we have a complete remedy for a single adit – there may be other entrances to it that have not been discovered or may appear over time.
b. If hazards are explicitly identified it implies that neighbouring areas are deemed ‘safe’ by the council.






😉
Strangely Brown
12 years ago
Think he's right about the higher adit, that wants a safety rail Perfect for leaning on whilst enjoying a Pimms on a summer's evening if I can ever afford a holiday in Kernow. I like the warning signs on adits and shafts, makes them much easier it find.
Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels, it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it.
tomh
  • tomh
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12 years ago
Bang on the mark, warning signs can also serve as an invitation.

I have had to be very careful where I position the ones on my shafts as I don't want them to be obvious from a distance but enough to alert the danger when closer.
Ian A
  • Ian A
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12 years ago
The man is a tw4t.

*edited to beat the filter
A door, once opened, may be stepped through in either direction.
Roger the Cat
12 years ago
Well, I know absolutely nothing about the Porthtowan adits, but I'm surprised that people havn't come across chaps like this one before in their lives. The construction industry was full of them!
tomh
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12 years ago
There are plenty of people like him.

Everyone of them is a c*ck out for their own ends.

Prime examples of 'a little knowledge is a dangerous thing'
Pinzgauer
12 years ago
"tomh" wrote:

There are plenty of people like him.

Everyone of them is a c*ck out for their own ends.

Prime examples of 'a little knowledge is a dangerous thing'



Spot on tomh!

If I knew as little as him, as sure as hell I'd keep my gob firmly shut, nevermind making a stupid video.

Get back to your Expenses Claims Forms Mr Councillorman !!
Who threw the overalls in Mrs Murphy''s Chowder ??
sparty_lea
12 years ago
response from the councilor

councilordave 7 hours ago

As background Cornwall Council has issued an order to my parish council to cover adits which we have not choice but to comply with. However it does not do so itself and it does not pursue other more? wealthy land owners. They have only issued this to a relatively poor community. I believe they are hypocrites.

councilordave 7 hours ago

I am doing this to point out the inconsistency that the Council has shown elsewhere. I agree with all your statements. But if Cornwall Council really think this way then they need to get their own house in order. (My gopro was mounted on the helmet BTW). Your views are really? appreciated too.
There are 10 types of people in the world.

Those that understand binary and those that do not!
lozz
  • lozz
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12 years ago
""Any remedy must fail in a safe way. If a barrier fails by rust , wear or vandalism it may be possible for a child to enter, become trapped and be beyond rescue of an adult""

Don't quite get that, must be getting old..

Lozz
Dolcoathguy
12 years ago
Other than signs for the non locals , education (schools) may help. The company I work for gives talks on the dangers of quarries, why cant a mine expert / Mine rescue expert give a talk on dangers of old mine workings? Some might even do it for free. I am sure there are many experts on this site who'd be happy to do this.
When I was a teenager I followed a path down to an adit, but remembered a couple of rock climbing lessons and thought perhaps I shouldn't tackle it without all the equipment.
It is never going to be a complete solution, but may help.
Is it safe to come out of the bunker yet?
tomh
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12 years ago
Lozz
I believe the child argument is:
A small child could possibly get through bars/grilles somehow and become trapped. e.g. get in but not get out, adults would not be able to retrieve them without cutting equipment.

Vanoord
12 years ago
"tomh" wrote:

Lozz
I believe the child argument is:
A small child could possibly get through bars/grilles somehow and become trapped. e.g. get in but not get out, adults would not be able to retrieve them without cutting equipment.



And if the tide happened to be coming in, that could become a very big problem...
Hello again darkness, my old friend...
simonrl
  • simonrl
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12 years ago
What I read it as is that...

Since it cannot be guaranteed that any measures they put in place will not cause other problems (trapping somebody in a high tide, hindering a rescue, allowing a child in but not an adult rescuer) and/or when they fail they cannot be guaranteed to fail in a safe way.

Therefore the net result of doing "something" is possibly worse than doing nothing.
my orders are to sit here and watch the world go by
lozz
  • lozz
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12 years ago
The council could stop people getting in if they wanted to, it's not rocket science, sounds like a case of bullsh*t baffles brains.

Lozz.
NewStuff
12 years ago
I suspect it has more to do with liability. If they put up some signs and leave it at that, they will likely not have a problem. If they "treat" it, and the excrement hits the spinny air pushing device, then they (and the contractors?) could well be on the hook for it.
Searching for the ever elusive Underground Titty Bar.

DDDWH CC
lozz
  • lozz
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12 years ago
Surely liability has already been established by the fact that they own it. I think it's down to money. If ten people got drowned in there in one go it would be sealed up pdq by whatever means

Lozz.
Vanoord
12 years ago
I fear we're going to be going round in circles shortly, but...

Liability is the responsibility of the land owner.

A land owner should, in law, take "reasonable" measures to minimise the risk to people who come onto their land.

Definition of the word "reasonable" is virtually impossible, even in a court of law, which makes life more difficult.

However, if a land owner assumes that they must take "reasonable" steps to ensure that people coming onto their land are protected from coming to harm, then that's a good place to start.

Similarly, the land owner is - to an extend - protected by the fact that they should only have to consider people coming onto their land and acting "reasonably".

That is to say that if someone who owns an adit fences it off and puts a sign on it saying "Danger, old mine, keep out", then they're probably covered against someone getting past the fence, getting in and damaging themselves.

However, if the land owner becomes aware that lots of people are climbing over their fence and gaining access to the mine, then the land owner's intent to keep people out starts to fall below "reasonable" measures and they may have to consider other means, for example gating the adit.

There's also another aspect to this in that if the mine happens to have a big vertical drop in the darkness, then the "reasonable" measures to keep people out should probably be a bit more serious - ie the measures taken should be proportionate to the risk.

In a case such as this, where there does appear to be a big drop inside the adit; and where there is reason to believe that people will gain access to the adit regularly, then there probably does need to be something done.

To my mind, "reasonable" measures would be some sort of signage at the adit entrance; and potentially a half-height wall across the adit a few feet in, with a sign on that wall warning of the deep drop beyond it.

The argument about grilles is probably correct: if something like bars were installed but one of them was subsequently removed so a child could get through but an adult rescuer could not get through, then the potential harm would be increased - particularly if the adit was below the high tide mark and time could become a critical issue.

At the end of the day, it comes down to a legal argument about what is "reasonable": did the land owner take "reasonable" steps to warn people of the danger and keep them out; and did the person gaining access behave as the land owner might expect a "reasonable" person to do.

Hello again darkness, my old friend...
lozz
  • lozz
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12 years ago
I wasn't thinking of a grill, more like a concrete plug,
They could go down the heritage route and make it safe inside and charge the emits 20 quid a pop to have a peek and 20 quid a pop to park their cars while they pay the said 20 quid to look at the attraction, but that would take a bit of vision, that is sometimes a rare commodity.

Lozz.

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