We have a Coalway Rd near here

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C*ving is about getting cold, wet and dirty in natural places underground. (makes no sense! :blink:)

Mine exploration is about getting cold, wet and dirty in man made places underground (which is very sensible :wub:)

Simple isn't it.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

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I should of course poke the fire here and say that mines were only dug in the first place for minerals :-P

There's a place for both - we run the Greenlaws mining project in Weardale that produces mineral specimens, but it also has an exploration theme - we are about to start restoring a lovely old tub that was found in the upper workings. The mine would not be open and accessible if it wasn't for minerals. Bear in mind that many mine digs have been done by collectors - and not always by collectors hell bent on making money either. It is the commercial side of minerals that causes all the problems - not the average person chipping a few bits off.

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On a another serious note ....

We had a member of the club who was studying "mining" (I don't recall the name of the course but it certainly centred on mining) at a university in the South of England.

He was required (as part of his degree) to visit various mine sites and collect samples of the geology (and produce a paper on them).

At the time he was with the club we visited Minera where he did collect some samples. None of the samples were Minerals (except, of course, "mineral" can cover rocks) but, rather, they were samples of the walls (the geology) in areas here mining had taken place (and, yes, he had a rock hammer).

He passed his degree and now lives and works in Greenland in one of the Gold mines there.

Similarly, another (current) member who took a degree in Geology was required to spend a month on Skye with university colleagues (camping) and collecting rock samples from the mountains (again with a rock hammer).

What is the general view of these two scenarios ?

Ian

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Bashing around with a hammer is fine... In the recent rains, millions of tons of rock was washed off the northern Fells of the lake district. There is a 'ban' on mineral collecting in this area. In one rainstorm, more 'damage' was done to the outcrop geology than the entire population of the world could achieve with rock hammers in 100 years!

The whole argument is silly - it comes down to jealousy (I've got a better bit than you) and money (how come you are selling rocks on ebay and making money - I don't so why should you?)...

There is certainly an argument for preserving some minerals in- situ. Places like the blue john mines preserve veins of the stuff for people to see. Other mines around the world that are commercial ventures fore tourism preserve cavities. It would be nice to see SOME cavities preserved in other mines such as the Nenthead area. I had one hidden for many years in Yorkshire that I used to take people down and show. It was huge, full of stunning specimens. I had a couple of bits from it, and it gave me a lot of pleasure to show people. One greedy collector tried to rape the lot. Such a pity - the cavity was worth more to look at than the specimens - pieces from there have never fetched much money.

This argument will always rage - mine explorers have an automatic accusation that all damage in mines is caused by collectors - it isn't. Most of the stacked deads in Smallclough flats for example, were collapsed by collectors, according to mine explorers. They have no evidence of this - they just say it. No collector is going to collapse stacked deads - you don't find good specimens in stacked waste rock - you find them in big cavities! I've SEEN mine explorers - local kids, armed with nothing but hand torches, scrambling over deads in Smallclough and sending them everywhere.

To summarise Ian's example - being able to collect most probably stimulated that person's interest and turned it into a career. It certainly did for me, and for a number of other people I know. That has to be a good thing. As is the look of wonderment on a kids face when they find something pretty - it sparks a lifelong interest in geology and the world around them - keeps them off a computer and silly war games.

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What is the general view of these two scenarios ?

Ian

Well just my opinion.
Collecting rock samples for education or research is no big thing. Even underground if done with respect and restraint.

I do have a problem with "collectors" and more so commercial sellers who can do a lot of damage removing "pretties" and colorful specimens. They are often not interested in history or leaving anything for other visitors to see.
I.M.H.O. best practice it to have a dedicated area or section of tip for collectors (as done at Snailbeach for example.)

I go with just about everything that's being said

For what its worth, I don't have a problem with dealers or collectors, but do have a problem with people who have a problem, which is why I feel uneasy about seeing a mineral thread on here.

Sorry if this comes over as one of my Zen riddles.

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Whilst we're on the subject, does anyone know of a rock-bopper active in Ashford Black Marble Mines?, freshly produced chippings have been found in the vicinity of a pack wall and safety is a concern...

One or two sample collectors have been squashed when mines fight back!--

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A dedicated ollector and commercial dealers alike will always try to get the best bits out with as little damage as possible if they've got anything between their ears. There's no gain in smashing the place up beforehand and collectors don't want bruised specimens. As for a dedicated area for collectors that's no good. I've been to Snailbeach. The dump is full of dinged crap! And of now value to collectors. :guns:

but there are those who would deliberately smash the minerals they can't get out in the time they have in a particular mine so no one else can have them.....what does that make them !!!

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What about the story, rumor, whatever of a mineral collector dynamiting the entrance to South Terras to stop anyone getting more specimens?

What about the story, rumor, whatever of a mineral collector dynamiting the entrance to South Terras to stop anyone getting more specimens?

We dynamited a vugh down Crofty to get some specimens out, some were donated to Truro Museum, the rest I suspect ended up in Swtzerland to a mineral dealer.

Getting specimens out was our only bunce money for us whenever we ended up off contract due to operation hold ups.

I seem to remember Cligga getting dynamited many many moons ago, the beach near Porthleven was, for Apatite.

Lozz.

I have a little bit of Galena I picked up off the floor of a mine a while back, it sits on my monitor stand at work to cheer me whilst I am trapped in my little cubicle :(

If you are working a mine than obviously you will remove minerals :)

I guess the examples given above for educational use are fine too.

I can think of a few places where it's obvious that pretty bits have been hacked out - I don't remember them before though but its nicer to see things in place - I can't see too much difference between chopping out some crystals and the removal of things like the wheels off that cart at Balls Green?

Would I be right in thinking that the mineral rights for most places are still owned by someone and are not usually specific to a particular mineral, so to remove samples commercially you'd need the owners consent?

I can't see too much difference between chopping out some crystals and the removal of things like the wheels off that cart at Balls Green?

You are right, there is no difference. Both are wrong.

I once built a crystal radio reciever with a piece of Galena I found on the dump at old Wheal Jane. Hours of fun getting a signal, and then frustration at losing it when putting my coffee mug down on the desk. The slightest vibration would alter the 'cats whisker' point contact probe. Happy days 🙂

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Have often viewed discussions like this with curiosity. Why are there mines? Because people sought minerals underground, often assisted by explosives. Why do we understand the properties of minerals and the nature of economic mineral deposits? Because mineralogists have spent centuries examining specimens. Without that understanding there would be far less mines for today's mine enthusiasts to go and look around. Yet it is mine enthusiasts who jump up and down condemning those who collect samples. Do you not see the paradox?

agree with some of your points, however, there is a large difference to collecting to educate and raping a site to line ones own pockets.

We should be custodians of the mines and preserve them as best we can so future generations can enjoy in situ (not off a placard at a mineral fair)

Our group has been involved in a few digs into interesting places and due to the worry of collectors it has had to stay under wraps.

This isnt furthering anyones knowledge....................

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But is not "raping a site to line one's pockets" exactly what mining companies do, or at least attempt to do (or so their shareholders hope)?

How does reopening a metal mine for its metals, a perfectly legitimate procedure assuming planning and the EA are satisfied, sit with this?

I go with just about everything that's being said

For what its worth, I don't have a problem with dealers or collectors, but do have a problem with people who have a problem, which is why I feel uneasy about seeing a mineral thread on here.

Sorry if this comes over as one of my Zen riddles.

Actually Roy for once 😉 you make perfect sense. Aditnow is a broad church. Its healthy for both sides to be able to put their opinions. I could add my tuppence worth a no doubt rile those of the opposing point of view, but to be honest whats it going to achieve? What I believe to be catastrophic for all would be for either view point to become the total outlook of this site, there's a healthy balance, I have often said that the best compromise or deal is the one where neither party is happy with it, man's instinct is primarily a self serving one, we have to accept the other has a right to take a stand point or we are no better than those tossers in Ar-Raqqah (Islamic Hate's capital) 😉

agree with some of your points, however, there is a large difference to collecting to educate and raping a site to line ones own pockets.

We should be custodians of the mines and preserve them as best we can so future generations can enjoy in situ (not off a placard at a mineral fair)

Our group has been involved in a few digs into interesting places and due to the worry of collectors it has had to stay under wraps.

This isnt furthering anyones knowledge....................

Oh I could just imagine someone on a sit down protest with a placard, guitar and chained to the railings at the entrance....;D