I'm doing some work for the Coal Authority into sources of Zinc/Cadmium coming out of the Hard Level effluent. I'm not a mine explorer (so have no experience inside these mines). Can I ask:
1) Are there any significant sources of surface water entering the mine from the surface (e.g. through the mine ceiling)?
2) Are there any large sumps where mine water collects before flowing out of Hard Level?
3) Is there an actual watershed in the drainage between Hard Level and Bunting Level/Sir Francis Level in Gunnerside (perhaps in the Old Rake Vein) - a point when you start descending towards Gunnerside?
I would be very grateful if anyone who has explored these adits can comment.
Kind regards,
Craig Speed (Amec Foster Wheeler Consultancy)

Hard level should only be entered by experienced mine explorers!
There are no sumps accessible between Old Rake vein and the level entrance.
Surface water, it is assumed, pours down into Hard Level via stopes and rises on Old Rake Vein.
At the present time there is no access from Bunton level into Old Rake vein. In any case there is a difference in levels between the two Adits, which probably would interfere with a water flow between the two mines.
On the Bunton side there are numerous sumps/stopes, so all the water on this side will, eventually end up in Sir Francis

I would suggest that if you don't go underground and check for yourself then you are not much of a consultant.
Having been involved in this type of consultancy for over 30 years as a chartered engineer who does go underground, I think you have a bit of a cheek asking for help when you are getting paid to do the work.
If your company has accepted the work, it must have the expertise to carry it out, or am I missing something??

Many folk here may only go underground as a hobby but they don't expect to be taken advantage of.

If you want to start again and ask if anyone could provide explorers to accompany you in your research (for a fee), then various members here may be able to help you, myself included, though I do it for a living.

Hi John,
Thank you. This is very helpful. I cannot enter the mines as I am completely unqualified professionally to do so. But I do appreciate your comments and expertise.

Thanks again for your time.
Kind regards,
Craig

I would suggest that if you don't go underground and check for yourself then you are not much of a consultant.
Having been involved in this type of consultancy for over 30 years as a chartered engineer who does go underground, I think you have a bit of a cheek asking for help when you are getting paid to do the work.
If your company has accepted the work, it must have the expertise to carry it out, or am I missing something??

Many folk here may only go underground as a hobby but they don't expect to be taken advantage of.

If you want to start again and ask if anyone could provide explorers to accompany you in your research (for a fee), then various members here may be able to help you, myself included, though I do it for a living.

Couldn't agree more.

If you intend to use people's skills /knowledge in a commercial context you should expect to pay a commercial rate for those skills / knowledge. Anything else is taking the p*ss

Three worthy publications:
BGS - Geology of the Northern Pennine Orefield - Volume 2. Dunham and Wilson. ISBN 0 11 884 2846
The Lead Industry of Wensleydale and Swaledale - Volume 1 The Mines. Arthur Raistrick. ISBN 0 86190 185 1
A History of Lead Mining in the Pennines. Arthur Raistrick & Bernard Jennings. ISBN 0 946865 00 0 or 0 946571 01 5

The first one is the definitive work.

I would start with Moore Books to find them.
http://www.moorebooks.co.uk/ 

But really you need to go down there as you would soon realise that the questions you are posing are essentially impossible to answer with any degree of certainty! The hillside is like a swiss cheese with innumerable openings (mainly with porous fill) on the surface.

Chris.

Help the Coal Authority with their research and maybe enhance the professional perception of Mine Archaeologists. Free choice that we can all make.
I have helped with a lot of information about water flow underground at Nenthead. It cost me some thinking time and some email time.

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It is not about helping the Coal Authority.
It is about a consultancy who has accepted a commission from the Authority to do research and does not have the tools to do the job.
To then try and do the work by asking others to provide research freely is, in my opinion, dishonest.
The work was probably let by tender and as usual, the lowest got the job, having not allowed for using qualified staff and proper resources for the task in hand.

It is not about helping the Coal Authority.
It is about a consultancy who has accepted a commission from the Authority to do research and does not have the tools to do the job.
To then try and do the work by asking others to provide research freely is, in my opinion, dishonest.
The work was probably let by tender and as usual, the lowest got the job, having not allowed for using qualified staff and proper resources for the task in hand.

Totally agree. Pay people for their help if you aren't in a position to be doing the job correctly. Don't come on and try and get the job done for free and pass the work off as your own :)

I would be concerned about the report if I am honest as if you do not have experience of this type of work how can you provide an adequate report?

Generally speaking, I'd tend to side with Peter somewhat. Leaving aside the issue of consultancy fees, our experience on the moors is that maintaining good relationships with as many agencies and people as is humanly possible reaps tangible benefits.

And if, heaven forbid, AMEC get authority to start dicking around on the actual site itself, having somebody with a friendly relationship to keep an eye on what they are doing or even provide a bit of useful advice can't be such a bad thing.

It might even open a few doors, being seen as a generally helpful bunch.

Chris.

I have to say that I'm with Les on this. Any consultancy firm taking on work should either have most of the knowledge and experience necessary to do that work or have made arrangements to buy it in before starting out, not just pitch up on the internet and try and scrape information - for starters, if you don't have any knowledge and experience in that particular field how do you know what whether you've been told is reliable or not? In this case, given that it's dealing with what's likely some complex hydrology there's a person both Les and I can think of who I'm sure would be happy to get involved for a fee....:devil:

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I agree with Peter hence my response.

My opinions are a bit divided here, as are my friends!

But putting on my most objective hat I have to say that the approach made on here by someone acting on behalf of a firm of consultants is, I would not go as far as to say dishonest, but the phrase which does occur is 'lacking in professionalism'.

Thing to remember is that this is a public forum which can be viewed by anyone, including your clients, who would then form their own opinion.

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Correct Roy.
But the thing is that younger folk think that the older generation don't know what the internet is.
It's a bit like putting photos of yourself in compromising positions on Facebook and then wondering why you have just been sacked..........

The thing to remember about all of this is that for many of these consulting firms it is all about volume and fees. Never mind whether you have the knowledge, just get the job.
Today it is old mines, tomorrow it is counting newts, who cares, just get the bill right.

The thing to remember about all of this is that for many of these consulting firms it is all about volume and fees. Never mind whether you have the knowledge, just get the job.
Today it is old mines, tomorrow it is counting newts, who cares, just get the bill right.

So true,
A number of year`s back Armstrong-Wardell done a feasability study on the old Johnson Colliery in Blaenafon/Forgeside for the prospective purchasers Riche Mining.

You know what,£1,500,000 later it was abandoned for the same reason Caledonian Mining failed there,

But they had their fees first.

I am with Les all the way on this, if you bid for a job, you are honour bound to know you have the ability and resources to carry out that work without resorting to asking for help from non company personnel, especially on-line volunteers.

Similarly, those that issue the contract should be sure they give it to those who can fulfill the requirements 'in house', the Coal Authority are not shown in a good light by this thread.

It would be interesting to see the presentation given to the CA in order to win this contract, I wonder if the OP comes within the remit of 'A comprehensive internet search', a term I have often come across and really means 'Its Winter, Its cold, and I can't be a*sed to leave my nice warm office'.

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Interesting ---- check out the web site at;

http://www.amecfw.com/ 

Type 'Craig Speed' into the company search box.
See if you get the same result as I did!.

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This is Craig Speed's profile on Linkedin

Senior Consultant Hydrogeologist, AMEC Environment & Infrastructure UK Ltd.
Demographic info
Shrewsbury, United Kingdom | Environmental Services

Current
Senior Consultant Hydrogeologist at AMEC Environment & Infrastructure UK Limited

Past
Consultant Hydrogeologist at Entec UK Ltd, Technical Officer at Environment Agency

Education
University of Southampton, The University of Edinburgh

Summary
Craig is a Senior Consultant in Water Management with 11 years of post-doctoral experience working for the Environment Agency and AMEC.

Sounds credible enough to me. I reckon his company has signed up for the job and has dumped it on his desk.

BTW: the link to amecfw turns up one search result that doesn’t mention his name.

I doubt whether there are many (any?) hydrogeologists who are qualified to crawl around underground :-)

He could even be far enough up the corporate ladder to commission somebody who is (and pay for the services!).

Yorkshireman says,

"I doubt whether there are many (any?) hydrogeologists who are qualified to crawl around underground :-)

He could even be far enough up the corporate ladder to commission somebody who is (and pay for the services!)".


They do exist, we have a crop of them in Derbyshire wanting to block up Magpie Sough.

If Dr Speed wants to get help in going underground, I can recommend a Derbyshire mine access company that I use when we do inspection work. Also same company that fixes access for UU at Milwr Tunnel. (disclaimer, no connection!)

Les