A subject that has probably been discussed many times before, but here goes, if the portal of a mine is on private land but the best parts are under yours would you have to just get permission from the land owner to enter what is in effect your mine. Would you be entitled to put a gate at the boundary like at rampgill, and is its right to say that the parts under your land belong to you? Anybody's knowledge on the subject would be very useful.

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The land owner may, or may not be the mineral rights owner.Often mineral rights are separated from land ownership. There should be someone listed as the "Mine Operator" and it is their responsibility to make safe.
The mineral rights owner or Mine Operator has a right of access to all entrances.

Roy Fellows may comment more.:thumbup:

Disagree your last in Colin

Mineral ownership whether separate from the land ownership or included would not confer the right to cross another persons land to get to yours, land, mine or whatever, without their authority.

In the real world there has been a lot of issues with peoples properties in this way. People have bought home in the countryside with a track leading to them and then discovered that the right of way is pedestrian access only, a solicitor is paid to search for all this.

A while ago someone bought the Lordship of a Manor which included a strip of land alongside a road which residents had to cross to get to their homes.

Basically, he was carpetbagging and wanted to charge exorbitant rents for people to get their cars into their own drives. The local authority sorted it with a compulsory purchase, job done.

Its complicated business. A piece of land can have one landowner, another mineral owner, another having grazing rights, and another having the sporting rights, never mind 'wayleave' etc.

To answer the question directly, that part of the mine that is under another's land is not your mine.

Rampgill is mentioned, there is a boundary gate underground that separates what was LLC and later VM from Beaumont ownership.

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Also, in Derbyshire, you can own a mine regardless of land ownership.
Lots of pitfalls out here....

Oh Dear, Royal Forest of Dean, north Yorks?

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Thanks it's unfortunate that only the portal and at the most 3 to 4 feet of the adit is under one persons land then goes under our neighbours land before reaching ours where their are 2 large inclines. We have permission to use the portal but was wondering about ownership as it passes under other people's land and could we be stopped by them from reaching 'our' part.

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Also, in Derbyshire, you can own a mine regardless of land ownership.
Lots of pitfalls out here....

Would`nt owning and being allowed to enter be totally different if ownership or access agreement to the entrance was not secured?

Also, in Derbyshire, you can own a mine regardless of land ownership.
Lots of pitfalls out here....

Would`nt owning and being allowed to enter be totally different if ownership or access agreement to the entrance was not secured?

Now that depends upon what was mined;, Derbyshire mined coal, lead, ironstone and various other minerals, each one had different rules, I don't think the Barmote Laws have been repealed for lead, but others I have little knowledge on ---- Les???

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i have always understood that if you own a piece of land with workings below you, and there is a entrance on another property you would have access, reason for access could be many not least potential subsidence, even if the owner of the property would refuse access , i can not see any court if it came to that, refusing you access, if it was life threatening or potential property loss, i always under stood mineral rights owners had a right of access as well, all of the above if not a matter of life or death it would be expected to give the land owner with access on there land reasonable notice of intent to enter,

there are also other rights holders as well the dumps could be separate owner ship to the free holder, and hunting and fishing rights

Mineral ownership is usually referred to on a conveyance as "all mines and minerals" although it is possible to buy a mine without mineral ownership due to there being complete freedom of contract in property conveyance.

Complicated it certainly is.

If one owns a mine but not mineral ownership, there is a presumed ownership of "adjacent strata", however this can be lost upon abandonment.
I could give case law on some of this but would have to look it up.

Mineral ownership includes a lot of ancillary rights related to extraction, such as the right to lay roads, sink shafts, dump spoil, erect buildings etc, subject to compensation being paid to the landowner. Some deeds make a specific mention of the ancillary rights.
I recommend the work "History and Practice of the Law of Mines and Minerals", however some of it is now out of date due to Bocardo V Star Energy and of course there is the Countess of Lonsdale business.

I have mentioned this before.

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Mineral ownership is usually referred to on a conveyance as "all mines and minerals" although it is possible to buy a mine without mineral ownership due to there being complete freedom of contract in property conveyance.

Complicated it certainly is.

If one owns a mine but not mineral ownership, there is a presumed ownership of "adjacent strata", however this can be lost upon abandonment.
I could give case law on some of this but would have to look it up.

Mineral ownership includes a lot of ancillary rights related to extraction, such as the right to lay roads, sink shafts, dump spoil, erect buildings etc, subject to compensation being paid to the landowner. Some deeds make a specific mention of the ancillary rights.
I recommend the work "History and Practice of the Law of Mines and Minerals", however some of it is now out of date due to Bocardo V Star Energy and of course there is the Countess of Lonsdale business.

I have mentioned this before.

thats how i view it, the mineral rights owner would expect to be allowed access with reasonable notification to view,inspect,there rights, to extract, mine, work, would need negotiation with the land owner, subject to the conveniencing and deeds, i think ultimately the mineral rights owner would be allowed to extract over the easement subject to agreement, no agreement lengthy civil litigation

But as I understand it the OP has no rights by deed over the adjacent land, hence his inquiry?

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But as I understand it the OP has no rights by deed over the adjacent land, hence his inquiry?

then why did you digress into the broader issues of access in your post after mine,

he does not need any right of access by deed or otherwise, if he or his agent wish to inspect voids underneath his land ,giving reasonable notice to the landowner, any land owner who made access difficult and loss of life and/or danger to property happened because of there actions, i would say would find themselves with a claim against themselves, possibly dragging in the mineral owners as well, inspection of mines and access is different from surface access and trespass

Roy this is correct, we are hoping that when the landowner passes away we will be able to purchase this very small parcel of land and then all the access problems would have gone, indeed a friend of ours has even said that he would buy it for us. As to mineral estate although discussed many times by our group it was always assumed that the Lord of the manor owned them, but having just done some research apparently if he didn't register his rights back in October 2013 we will hold them and would have been informed by the land registry if he had done so it's looking positive for us. Thanks to everyone for all the help, a real can of worms!

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Manorial Rights!

Ouch

It is very legally complicated and sounds like a lawyers wet dream.
:lol:

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A bit more.
Manorial mineral rights although giving mineral ownership effectively to the lord of the manor (Countess of Lonsdale V Tesco) do not confer the same ancillary rights as ownership by deed.

Also beware of the Land Registry entry having a 'Caution' as this could refer to something relative to someones rights over the land. Mineral ownership by deed is valid whether registered or not and a caution may well refer to a severance.

I will throw in this last bit for general amusement, and it is true not made up.
Consider a mine where mineral ownership is divided between two parties one of which lives in Zimbabwe and was last heard of being arrested when human sculls were found on his land.

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Manorial Rights may not include the ownership of the mine.

http://blog.landregistry.gov.uk/letters-send-manorial-rights/ 

EXTRACT:

There are varying types of manorial rights relating to mines and minerals. They can range from owning the mines and minerals and being able to take them away, whether or not the owner of the surface agrees, to having some rights to them that can be exercised only with the agreement of the surface owner.

http://blog.landregistry.gov.uk/letters-send-manorial-rights/#sthash.GPo1Jkqv.dpuf 

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Thanks for doing all this research for me, we own the land so that is a big advantage but still makes me scratch my nut reading it a few times over:confused:

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It is all very complicated with minerals other than coal,

You may own the land that the majority of the mine is under,but unless you own the mineral rights and the site the mine entry is on,its not your mine,unless I`m missing something?

It is all very complicated with minerals other than coal,

You may own the land that the majority of the mine is under,but unless you own the mineral rights and the site the mine entry is on,its not your mine,unless I`m missing something?

Right on.
This is what I was saying but in not so few words, sorry for digressing in every direction. Its probably one of my personal faults.

I have been known to do simple "yes" and "no", but rarely.
;D

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