stuey
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16 years ago
"sougher" wrote:



There must be a number of FEMALE members including myself, of Aditnow, albetit in the minority. Please stop being sexist Stuey, why can't girls be interested in geology, mine and cave exploration etc, why are such interests labelled "male hobbies"?.



Sorry, I was referring to the stereotypical male "pattern" brain.

Interesting subject.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology_of_gender 
Level1
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16 years ago
"TimH" wrote:

Details of the Smallcleugh SSSI are on Natural England's website - http://www.english-nature.org.uk/special/sssi/sssi_details.cfm?sssi_id=1005631 

Among the operations requiring NE's consent is 'Extraction of minerals'


Yes, and this is OLD (Operation Liable to Damage) no. 20. It refers to mining and quarrying operations, NOT specimen collecting. Specimen collecting is OLD no. 25. The fact that a separate OLD notification exists for specimen collecting should make it clear that no. 20 is NOT about collecting. The Smallcleugh SSSI does not have OLD 25 notification, therefore specimen collecting is not precluded by its SSSI status.
Level1
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16 years ago
"simonrl" wrote:

One thing we're going to have to draw a clear distinction between in this policy is that between the small scale private collector / mineralogist who enjoys their hobby (usually in conjunction with an interest mining heritage and preservation) and abides by NAMHO guidelines, and the commercial mineral dealer. This is not the site for the latter group, and by and large it is members of that latter group who have caused the problems in this thread.



Drawing that distinction may not be easy as many a small scale private collector sells a portion of what they find to recoup costs. The primary motivation for them is not money, selling minerals for them is just a way of paying for the petrol. At the other extreme are those for whom profit is the primary motive. However, Skippy's optimistic prices notwithstanding, I think anyone looking for profit from collecting and selling minerals will find it very hard work.

[tweak]Post edited to correct quote - nothing else changed[/tweak]
Peter Burgess
16 years ago
"Level1" wrote:

"TimH" wrote:

Details of the Smallcleugh SSSI are on Natural England's website - http://www.english-nature.org.uk/special/sssi/sssi_details.cfm?sssi_id=1005631 

Among the operations requiring NE's consent is 'Extraction of minerals'


Yes, and this is OLD (Operation Liable to Damage) no. 20. It refers to mining and quarrying operations, NOT specimen collecting. Specimen collecting is OLD no. 25. The fact that a separate OLD notification exists for specimen collecting should make it clear that no. 20 is NOT about collecting. The Smallcleugh SSSI does not have OLD 25 notification, therefore specimen collecting is not precluded by its SSSI status.



I recall some years ago investigating what actually constitutes a mining operation, in legal terms, specifically wrt operations that should comply with Mines Inspectors' legislation. I was surprised to learn that amateurs engaged in anything resembling mining operations such as reopening levels, or adding supports are strictly speaking engaged in mining and should, strictly speaking, comply with mining legislation. I suspect that breaking rock and minerals out of undisturbed ground, or even digging them out of loose spoil would also be considered a 'mining operation'. My feeling is that widespread extraction of mineral specimens from native rock would therefore be construed as significant mining and not collecting. Take care. Mining legislation is part of the HSE, and if you are engaged in removing minerals for commercial gain you might find yourself exposed to parts of English law that you hadn't considered, and liable to prosecution if you do so without regard for HSE law. As an example in the mine exploration world, commercial bodies engaged in escorting people around disused underground sites should, and do, get routes approved by a Mines Inspector to ensure they are doing so in a safe and proper manner.


minerat
16 years ago
Looks like I will have to take up whittling sticks and buy a rocking chair, if this what was a post on rubbish in Smallcleugh leads to. Shelling individuals to legislation, better hang up my lamp now, throw the ropes in the skip,shred my info or book into an old folk`s home.....bin a sad couple of days on here. we all have different views on subjects dear to our hearts but why oh why get nasty, lifes too short. ( I know nearly 70 and love mines, mining history, mining conservation, and minerals it all keeps me fit and my poor brain active......one day most of you will be old.....I hope there will be mines for you to explore then.....but maybe you will have to be a member of a club or a tourist..stay safe. 😢
be afraid.....very afraid !!!!
PaulatNent
16 years ago
"Level1" wrote:

"TimH" wrote:

Details of the Smallcleugh SSSI are on Natural England's website - http://www.english-nature.org.uk/special/sssi/sssi_details.cfm?sssi_id=1005631 

Among the operations requiring NE's consent is 'Extraction of minerals'


Yes, and this is OLD (Operation Liable to Damage) no. 20. It refers to mining and quarrying operations, NOT specimen collecting. Specimen collecting is OLD no. 25. The fact that a separate OLD notification exists for specimen collecting should make it clear that no. 20 is NOT about collecting. The Smallcleugh SSSI does not have OLD 25 notification, therefore specimen collecting is not precluded by its SSSI status.



OLD 25 Specimen collecting. Picking up a specimen and taking it home

OLD 20 Damaging the fabric of the mine or digging into a spoil heap to 'extract' a mineral sample

This is what we have been told by the NE inspector who visits Smallcleugh regularly.
Peter Burgess
16 years ago
That's exactly how the situation was misunderstood when it came up as I described. Minerat has done the same thing. What you do as an amateur exploring old mines is entirely your business provided you are not doing it for commercial gain, or engaged in what is effectively a mining operation. Having experienced almost first hand the comments of a Mines Inspector WRT what we do in the South East, I can reassure you that the vast majority of amateur operations are of no concern whatsoever to them. The NAMHO guidelines on exploration were compiled in cooperation with the Mines Inspectorate, I believe.
sougher
16 years ago
Peter wrote "It might also be a good idea to recognise in any policy the possible consequences of what might be considered innocent actions".

I learnt the hard way! Way back in Feburary, 1952 the north Derbyshire village of Winster experienced some very heavy earth tremors. The houses are all solidly built of stone and have stood for a few hundred years, cracks were caused in buildings, chimney stacks toppled etc. etc. The villagers knowing that large pipe worked lead mines containing large caverns lay beneath the village and wondered if they were collapsing and causing the tremors. My caving club volunteered to descend some of the shafts to find out but before we explored we walked the area with many of the villagers who knew a lot about the mines and minerals. One elderly spar miner who was also a Primative Methodist Preacher in his spare time, was particularly knowledgeable, not just of the Winster area but also of the Alport/Youlgreave area having with his brother worked down Mawstone mine, Youlgreave before the fatal accident at the mine in May, 1932 which killed five miners underground and three rescuers who perished attempting a rescue. He told us of the site of a small quarry where an unusual form of baryte called locally "oakstone" or "onyx stone" could be found. We left the quarry alone, never took anything from it or told anyone about it. However a few years later in the early 1960's I was at Magpie Cottage with a fellow member of PDMHS and the conversation got around to discussing this particular form of barytes and stupidly I gave him directions for finding the quarry where the small deposit was. This person, a geologist publishs lots of articles and books and he wrote about this deposit of "oakstone" giving it's location, in one of his publications. Yes, you can guess. Some idiot read about it, took a digger and excavated what was left of the "oakstone" leaving nothing whatsoever behind. Since then, unfortunately I do not disclose the location of any mine or quarry where I think mineral specimans can be stolen or damage done. A sad case of learning the hard way. As the main contributor for the lead mining section in the Bonsall Book (published in 2006) I had to be very careful in writing of the history of the Bonsall mines not to give the exact location of the mines I named, so that idiots could not go tramping over farmer's fields causing damage and trespassing. It's a sad world.
Vanoord
16 years ago
"minerat" wrote:

but why oh why get nasty, lifes too short. ( I know nearly 70 and love mines, mining history, mining conservation, and minerals it all keeps me fit and my poor brain active......one day most of you will be old.....I hope there will be mines for you to explore then.....but maybe you will have to be a member of a club or a tourist..stay safe. 😢



One can only hope that one's still capable of getting down mines when one is nearly 70!! 😉

Elves and Safety are something that's a subject for another day, one where I shall rant for a long, long time...

I think that from a mine explorer and historian point of view (and my degree is very relevant) there's certainly an issue with any activity that alters the fabric of something which is effectively a time capsule from the past.

That said, this thread has opened my eyes somewhat to a world that's been very much hidden to me; and I can appreciate that in some cases, the minerology of a site should be preserved in its own right.

Yet I still find it very hard to justify an action which permanently alters the fabric of a site.
Hello again darkness, my old friend...
PeteJ
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16 years ago
Archaeologists damage things every day - when they excavate a site - however, they record the site before they dig and during the dig and so on....

Where English Heritage have agreed new building work on the scheduled monument at Nenthead, they have always required that the new build is visibly different to older buildings - perhaps the walls are rendered or are of a timber construction, for example.

I would therefore apply the same approach to underground alterations in historic mines. Record/repair/treat the site the same as on the surface.

Peter J
Pete Jackson
Frosterley
01388527532
Vanoord
16 years ago
I think you've hit upon a very important thought there: it should be a priority that if any action is to be undertaken which alters the fabric of a site, then that area should be properly recorded beforehand.
Hello again darkness, my old friend...
stevem
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16 years ago
"PeteJ" wrote:


I would therefore apply the same approach to underground alterations in historic mines. Record/repair/treat the site the same as on the surface.
Peter J



Fair point, IF things have to be removed for whatever reason (can't think of any though aprt from imminent destruction of the mine by untopping etc) they should be recorded first.
I however, like many on this site I think, would prefer to see the artefacts, mineral structures etc in tact IN the mine.
May the fleas of a thousand camels infest the crotch of the person who
screws up your day and may their arms be too short to scratch.
PeteJ
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16 years ago
I entirely agree!
Pete Jackson
Frosterley
01388527532
Peter Burgess
16 years ago
Though not mine-related, the Fairy Cave Quarry (Somerset) story is a text-book example of how commercial considerations were voluntarily set aside in the interests of conservation. Before the quarry closed, the owners were happy for cavers to record what speleological treasures they had unearthed before the sites were damaged or quarried away. And then for the owners to voluntarily close the quarry operation for the sake of preserving what was left was a rare act of sacrifice of the part of the commercial interests. Maybe they had other reasons as well, but the caves certainly were a major factor in the decision-making.
sparty_lea
16 years ago
I was told lately that it was a group from NPHT that removed the signs from the underground workings in Rampgill a few years ago.
Can anyone from the trust confirm or deny this?

I mean the ones with the shaft signals and the one outbye of that about moving wagons.
There are 10 types of people in the world.

Those that understand binary and those that do not!
PeteJ
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16 years ago
NPHT do not have the signs. Might it have been NORPEX?


Pete Jackson
Frosterley
01388527532
sparty_lea
16 years ago
"PeteJ" wrote:

NPHT do not have the signs. Might it have been NORPEX?



I've no idea who it was and neither it seems does my informant.

I miss them though, they were very interesting. I've toyed with the idea of replacing them, if only with a typed laminated sheet with the original wording. Anything better than that would likely only get nicked as well.

What are people's thoughts on that idea?
There are 10 types of people in the world.

Those that understand binary and those that do not!
Redwinch
16 years ago
"PeteJ" wrote:

NPHT do not have the signs. Might it have been NORPEX?



The signs were still in situ until the doors were destroyed, maybe the vandals / mineral dealers removed them, nuff sed

Still supporting Rampgill. last time I looked
Vanoord
16 years ago
Tsk tsk... not all the world's ills are caused by mineral dealers: artifacts have no doubt been removed from mines by folk with no interest whatsoever in rocks 😉
Hello again darkness, my old friend...
PeteJ
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16 years ago
I like this idea. I had been thinking that it would be interesting to create new signs for Nenthead surface using the same script. I assume that they would have to be sign written/painted on wood etc. The linkage to the past ( for the surface) are that the buildings are basically as left by the VMZ and their signs would fit that time.

NPHT has one captive example on display - this came from Brewery shaft and is on display- we therefore have a model to work from.....any one interested in having a go at the sign writing, or know anyone who could be persuaded to do them for the cost of the materials?

NPHT could make this into a mini project and perhaps get into fund raising - subject to the NPHT Board agreeing etc

Pete Jackson
NPHT

Pete Jackson
Frosterley
01388527532
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