It's too late to go into details of 617 Squadron's operations! I can't be bothered writing the whole story, mainly as it has nothing to do with artifacts in mines! :offtopic:

Guy Gibson's dog was called 'Blackie' if I recall.
:offtopic:

Close! He was called what we now refer to as "the N-word"....

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Guy Gibson's dog was called 'Blackie' if I recall.
:offtopic:

Close! He was called what we now refer to as "the N-word"....

What N-word, Nimrod? 😮

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I think he was called Blackie in the latest film, in the early version it was the "N word", I have seen the arming pin from the bomb which destroyed the Monne dam, and it is marked with said n word, the victory code, named after Gibson's dog which was hit by a lorry the afternoon before the attack.

Er... artifacts.

Let me ask a question then.

Given that some of the better artifacts go missing - this for example is no longer where it once was:

[img]http://www.aditnow.co.uk/showimage?f=/community/Dark-Places-Big-Bash-Maenofferen-Trip-11-08-2007-Image-001/[/img]

Are some artifacts better off taken by someone who will appreciate them for what they are and conserve them - or should they be left to take their chances and end up on eBay?


(and before anyone asks, I have no idea where it's gone - I was rather peeved to find it missing when I was last there as I wanted to try and emulate SimonRL's rather fine photo!)

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I think that's an excellent point. When discussing/writing about anything historical it's vital to consider the context of the times. I doesn't necessarily make it correct but at least maintains the perspective. Social aspects of mining in the 19th century springs to mind. On a different, but similar, note, I believe the name of Guy Gibson's dog in the later edition of the 'Dambusters' was changed. Quite ridiculous; otherwise how are we to understand social evolution? :angel:

Does that have anything to do with anything?

I think the colonel was saying that actions taken some time ago should not necessarily be judged by whatever the current climate of opinion is. I was merely agreeing with him.
The obvious example is children working down the mines. It wouldn't be acceptable now. Taking artifacts at the time may not have been quite so taboo in those days as it appears to be now. leaving the dog out of it some time ago I used the expression 'nitty gritty' in a conversation and a lynch mob quickly formed. Apparenty it is alleged by the PC police that it's connected to the slave trade.

The dog was called ******.

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Oh at last! Yes it is such a shame in the case of these artifacts, anything is better than them getting smashed or nicked by pikey types, but it is such a shame nothing can be done to save everything on some sites where plenty remains from the last working.

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Taking artifacts at the time may not have been quite so taboo in those days as it appears to be now. leaving the dog out of it some time ago I used the expression 'nitty gritty' in a conversation and a lynch mob quickly formed. Apparenty it is alleged by the PC police that it's connected to the slave trade.

So too does the expression "hiting the nail on the head", but I wouldn't not use that (or nitty gritty) because of that, it is now an expression in common usage and not relating to the slave trade at all. English is an evolving language.

I seem to remember seeing a shed amoungst the Bonsor Dressing Floors at Coniston, which had some equipment in it, though whether this was to do with the mining operation I'm not sure. Nearby there are also several wagons and bits of spare track, salvaged from the coppermines?

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I think the very fact that this discourse is happening is evidence of an enlightened attitude. So there is hope.
I read recently, a post on an mine exploration forum (not this one of course) where a guy had taken a lump of rusty chain from a mine and auctioned it on eBay. He was most surprised when the artifact failed to sell ! But the lack of any response to his post was 'deafening' ! Certainly a candidate for education !

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Taking artifacts at the time may not have been quite so taboo in those days as it appears to be now. leaving the dog out of it some time ago I used the expression 'nitty gritty' in a conversation and a lynch mob quickly formed. Apparenty it is alleged by the PC police that it's connected to the slave trade.

So too does the expression "hiting the nail on the head", but I wouldn't not use that (or nitty gritty) because of that, it is now an expression in common usage and not relating to the slave trade at all. English is an evolving language.

Sure is. I think I'll google that 😉 I agree I still use it and even heard it used by a bishop a couple of days later. But don't get me wrong I'm not disagreeing with the general tenor of this thread.

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I seem to remember seeing a shed amoungst the Bonsor Dressing Floors at Coniston, which had some equipment in it, though whether this was to do with the mining operation I'm not sure. Nearby there are also several wagons and bits of spare track, salvaged from the coppermines?

Last time I was there, in the ruins of one of the Bonsor mills there was a collection of machinery and equipment, some agricultural and some mine-based- I think it's someones collection which is kept at Bonsor.

Ok, here's a scenario - you're exploring a disused colliery, rummaging around in some rubbish and come across this little gem http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=250235378868&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=015  what would you do?

When you think about it what we are witnesing now with relics disapearing has happened several times over in the past. But we are more aware of it now with the advent of the internet.
Many mines and quarries have closed over the years like Diphwys, Oakley etc and items have been scrapped or salvaged and of course some items have been kept. I remember going with my father to the 'Lord' quarry (Fotty) when it closed in the early 1960's. To salvage slate blocks, some tools and equipment and wagons. Now all that remains of the mill and relics is nil. A similar thing has happend at the Rover factory at Longbridge, Birmingham recently. Many historic relics gone I would think.
I met a bloke from ????? a few weeks ago on the track to M### he was interested in its history etc.he said his interest was electrical contacts (swiches) and he had taken some from the ruined quarry buildings. My first impression was to think 'what a dammed thief'. But when I later thought about it my feelings were 'perhaps they have gone where they are appreciated' and 'what would have happened to them otherwise'. To me and most others switches are of no interest whatever, but other people have a different view.
And when the mine owners show no care nor interest what will the outcome be I wonder?

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And when the mine owners show no care nor interest what will the outcome be I wonder?

I'm afraid we've seen that, and will continue to do so, first hand 😞

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A very good point hymac. In this case, the site in discussion is very different, as it is all too easily accessed by anyone, so the situation with artifacts is different to deep underground where only explorers get to (and hence less change of being stolen or moved.)
Unless an entire site can be preserved, things are going to go missing in its state of semi-dereliction. It's such a shame that while a site like that is still so complete, nothing can be done to protect it so in the end the artifacts which survive may well be the ones which were pilfered.
If someone could have sneaked away with an incline winder not so long ago, it would be in a better place now, no matter where! :sneaky:

If someone could have sneaked away with an incline winder not so long ago, it would be in a better place now, no matter where! :sneaky:

Worse than that Chris, they were actually offered money for it with the offer to remove it at no cost or trouble to Greaves. Now look at it!

Optimist 🙂 You can still buy 'Ten Little *******' by dear old Agatha. I put the astericks in. :sneaky: But I take your point.

Great. Now can we talk about Artifacts in mines????

I thought that's what we were talking about. In other words peoples attitudes to actions of others in the past are linked to the attitudes and social structure of the present. For example I find that modern historians seem more interested in the exploitation of the miners than previously and following on from that, people like yourself and many others consider conservation that what is left is more important than the actions of others from previous generations. Attitudes change.

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That can't be changed though, but are we going to be cursing ourselves in 10-20 years time for failing to do anything more for what does remain? Any yes, I know it's not as easy as it sounds!

I thought that's what we were talking about. In other words peoples attitudes to actions of others in the past are linked to the attitudes and social structure of the present. For example I find that modern historians seem more interested in the exploitation of the miners than previously and following on from that, people like yourself and many others consider conservation that what is left is more important than the actions of others from previous generations. Attitudes change.

No, I was referring to the actual physical artifacts in the mines, not the social structure of modern society and changing attitudes.

I do not care about whether people feel more strongly about artifacts than the actions of previous generations. Fine, attitudes have changed. Cool. Wow. Wacko.

I am trying to discuss the preservation, and what is best for, the remaining physical artifacts left in mines and around the sites of mines, as this is something which can be changed by our actions, before it is too late.