An interesting, well referenced piece on the subject is to be found in Chapter 2 of Gwynedd:Inheriting a Revolution. David Gwyn. Phillimore.2006. ISBN.1-86077-432-6.

Standby for incoming protests of how they are all innocent and misjudged.....

How right you were.

There seems to be a general ethos amongst mineral collectors that their little specimen doesn't cause any harm and anyway the mines were dug to extract these things in the 1st place

Well like it or not mines really are there for the purpose of the extraction of minerals. Get used to it.

Most of the mines we are interested in were there to extract minerals, now they no longer do, so mine explorers visit them, and somethimes help preserve them. Most are not there for mineral extraction any more, they are surviving monuments to the miners who created them.

As for the notion that minerals "should be left for future generations" that has to be one of the most stupid comments on this thread. What use are they to future generations if by then the mine has collapsed and the minerals are sealed in forever?

Yes, it's the same with artifacts left over from mining. But I think that the general consensus on this site is that those who remove artifacts from mines, when they are in no immediate danger, are common thieves and not self-respecting mine explorers.
I'm sure if everyone who visited Cwmorthin for example, took a tiny artifact home with them, there would be little point in visiting the place after a couple of weeks.

I stand by what I said, mineral collecting seems pretty pointless if the collectors don't respect the mines (Shall I quote again)

Well like it or not mines really are there for the purpose of the extraction of minerals. Get used to it.

, they are no better than mine explorers who steal artifacts, except in this case it's just for a crystal.

Actually Stephen, I won't get used to it or accept it as reasonable.
Go take a look at Carrock and then preach to me about how reasonable it is to pick away at little specimens. The £10k potential fine for stealing minerals from there hasn't even discouraged the vandalism.
You cite how collectors have done wonderful things in Nenthead by digging out the Horse Whim, whoopee doo, I suppose that justufuies taking a hammer to any remotely pretty piece of rock they come accross? We all know of places that once sparkled but are now just bare rock, look nice on your mantlepiece does it?
Those mines that do survive are not there simply for collectors to pillage despite how you see it.
Moan about it? You bet.
On the other hand I consider myself fortunate enough to have seen some lovely formations in places seldom seen. The knock on effect of that is simple, these places cannot be publically acknowledged or even have photo's shown of them because the "mineral collector" will destroy everything in his path to get his little chunk for himself.
I appreciate not all collectors are the same but there is no way to distinguish somebody who will rip out a hopper from those who will just pic up a sample from the floor.
It only takes one halfwit with a hammer to cause irreperable damage, wwhat makes that justifiable? Granny in her wheelchaor being able to wander round Tully House and coo about how pretty it is just does not justify it.

To sum it up, there are perhaps a few hundred people around the country who wander deep into mines for fun in this country, the cast majority seem to wish only to serve their own little interests and mineral collectors are a shining example of this. Get there sample whatever the cost to the mine or future explorers. You can harp on about not tarring all collectors with the same brush if you like, it on't change the fact that collectors willfully and deliberately cause damage just to get an ornament for their own gratification.

Oh dear, more whining, hate and prejudice from the anti-mineral collecting brigade. Well like it or not mines really are there for the purpose of the extraction of minerals.

Were!

Besides, minerals below ground cannot be enjoyed by those above. So selfish and opinionated are the anti-collectors that they would deny the appreciation of minerals to the infirm, the elderly, children and anybody else not able to get down a hole and see muddy examples in dim light in some damp, dark corner.

Strong stuff! A mineral in a private collection can be enjoyed by that particular private collection and his/her friends. The stuff about the elderly and infirm is nonsense, sorry.

As for "damage", I get the impression that one only has to turn a pebble over and some prig will start whining.

It's a question of using common sense. Stuff changes, stuff decays, stuff falls down. By walking along somewhere you will have some impact. Sense ensures that the essence is preserved.

Most cases are exaggerated

If I was feeling uncharitable, I might accuse that comment of being an exageration ;)

pulling down hoppers is deplorable

We agree entirely :)

So some collectors sell some of their finds? So what? We have mortgages and bills to pay, and the cost of fuel is becoming obscene. To even recoup costs is a rare event. And if some do make a profit good for them.

From my point of view, damaging historic remains for profit is not acceptable, sorry.

If the prigs do not like a little capitalism then I suggest they go live in North Korea where they may find the attitude to private enterprise a little more to their liking.

Strong stuff again!

Conspicuously absent from the criticisms of the moaning minnies here is any acknowledgment of the good done by collectors. Our museums are filled with their fruits, two peer-reviewed journals are supported by their discoveries, and mineralogy is a route into other aspects of mines and mining heritage.

Again, this is about balance. Take as many minerals as you want from waste tips as long as you don't materially affect them.

It is also thanks to collectors that some mines have been dug out. Smallcleugh in the 1960s comes to mind, and more recently the spectacular Scaleburn Horse Whim was found by commercial collectors seeking minerals to sell. A point I enjoy making to those who, if they had their way, would never ever have allowed that dig to take place!

There are often benefits to bad things. For exampe, World War 2 spurred the development of the jet engine, but it could never be considered justification.

Mineral collecting is a legimate hobby and reason to be interested in mines. It will not go away, it cannot be stopped and it is here to stay. Get used to it and find something else to moan about.

Again, strong stuff.

The thing is, you come across as being a bit unreasonable and you've been rather rude about some people because they adopt a different view to yours.

I'm sure that a lot of people wouldn't give a monkey's if you want to collect minerals, as long as you do not leave a materially detrimental impact. Basically, scouring waste tips is okay, collapsing ore chutes is not. Picking up rocks is okay, chipping away at deposits on the walls and irrevocably altering them is not.

This is, incidentally a very different thing to the removal of artefacts: removing half an ancient hobnail boot from a mine is one thing, chipping a section out of a copper suplhate deposit on the wall and permanantly disfiguring it is something else altogether.

When it comes down to it, it's a question of degrees - will you alter the fabric of a mine and cause significant detriment by doing something? If so, it is unacceptable.

If you do something which a regular visitor to a mine would not notice, then that is probably acceptable?

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as in reply to stephan's comment - I don't think Vannoord was going to make an attempt to stop you doing anything, but was just questioning what you said.

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The function of a mine is the extraction of minerals, hair splitting about past and present tenses notwithstanding. Besides, mines commonly get reopened/reworked. So one can even argue that the purpose of a mine was, is and will be the extraction of minerals. That is why they are there. Accept it.

Nothing you say changes my arguments. Minerals underground cannot be enjoyed by those above, cannot be effectively studied and are ultimately doomed to be sealed in unless collected first.

I do not disturb artifacts, having no particular interest in them, and no desire to damage them either, but the purpose of a mine is not the extraction of artifacts, although it could be argued that they too, are on death row. I do not disturb historical remains, or pull down hoppers etc. and resent being tarred with the same brush, but do take the correct attitude that minerals once exposed, whether below or above ground, are doomed unless collected. I'll leave the artifact debate to those with an interest in them, but anyone who tries to interfere with my collecting will be sent off with a flea in his ear. And I have done this on several occasions when self-righteous prigs and jobsworths have strutted up to me and huffed and puffed. I am not afraid to tell these miserable killjoys to their faces exactly what I think of them, and it is not complimentary. I find it ridiculously easy to refute their stupid, ignorant and pathetic arguments, so I do so and leave them to storm off in a huff. I have no respect for these people. Anyone who thinks their interest should over-ride someone else's should be challenged to justify it. So far I have seen no "justifications" adequate enough to justify preventing mineral collecting in all but a tiny number of cases. Accordingly, I shall carry on collecting and not let my freedoms be taken from me without a fight. What are you going to do about it?

Stephen, you are a pompous, ignorant tosser of the highest order.
Should I ever be unfortunate enough to meet you and you confront me with that attitude you shall be in for a rude surprise.
Your posts display gross hypocrisy and you dont even have the wit to recognise the contradictions in your own posts.
I would caution you in your approach to others that you may meet in persuit of your interests, you may find yourself just an artifact in a mine one day yourself.
If you ever find yourself in a position to threaten anybody in my presence outside the safety of an internet forum you will suddenly find yourself in a different world.
Ignorant fool.


P.S. Simon
Feel free to ban me for my comments,
Just can't help myself, god help you Stephen if you ever try that behavior in person

What are you going to do about it?

Suggest mineral collectors get off Adit Now. It's not my place, but they will always find arguements here, and they shouldn't even be here. Read the disclaimer, in particular, section 3. Also, there is no mention of this website being a resource for mineral collectors.

The function of a mine is the extraction of minerals, hair splitting about past and present tenses notwithstanding. Besides, mines commonly get reopened/reworked. So one can even argue that the purpose of a mine was, is and will be the extraction of minerals. That is why they are there. Accept it.

Nothing you say changes my arguments. Minerals underground cannot be enjoyed by those above, cannot be effectively studied and are ultimately doomed to be sealed in unless collected first.

I do not disturb artifacts, having no particular interest in them, and no desire to damage them either, but the purpose of a mine is not the extraction of artifacts, although it could be argued that they too, are on death row. I do not disturb historical remains, or pull down hoppers etc. and resent being tarred with the same brush, but do take the correct attitude that minerals once exposed, whether below or above ground, are doomed unless collected. I'll leave the artifact debate to those with an interest in them, but anyone who tries to interfere with my collecting will be sent off with a flea in his ear. And I have done this on several occasions when self-righteous prigs and jobsworths have strutted up to me and huffed and puffed. I am not afraid to tell these miserable killjoys to their faces exactly what I think of them, and it is not complimentary. I find it ridiculously easy to refute their stupid, ignorant and pathetic arguments, so I do so and leave them to storm off in a huff. I have no respect for these people. Anyone who thinks their interest should over-ride someone else's should be challenged to justify it. So far I have seen no "justifications" adequate enough to justify preventing mineral collecting in all but a tiny number of cases. Accordingly, I shall carry on collecting and not let my freedoms be taken from me without a fight. What are you going to do about it?

Ah, but the difference between mine explorers and you is that we go, we look, we take photos, but we do not REMOVE items whether they are crystals or artifacts.

So you are saying it is ok for crystals to be removed because they cannot be seen by elderly, infirm etc, even though they end up in a private collection where even less people can see them? Utter crap.

Accordingly, I shall carry on collecting and not let my freedoms be taken from me without a fight. What are you going to do about it?

"Your freedoms"? these so called freedoms are theft, nothing more, nothing less.

As for the last sentence - how childish! :guns: :guns:

The function of a mine is the extraction of minerals, hair splitting about past and present tenses notwithstanding. Besides, mines commonly get reopened/reworked. So one can even argue that the purpose of a mine was, is and will be the extraction of minerals. That is why they are there. Accept it.

No. Some mines won't be reopened. It is in the past tense because their purpose WAS once to extract minerals. No more. It's not that complicated.

what about all the explorers who have private collections of artifacts that they have recovered from mine for safe keeping aint they as bad as mineral collecters i know there are a few on this website.

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I don't think anybody here would condone the removal of artifacts for 'safe keeping' in a private collection.

what about all the explorers who have private collections of artifacts that they have recovered from mine for safe keeping aint they as bad as mineral collecters i know there are a few on this website.

I will take your word for it Ben
However, I don't and nor do any of those whom I go underground with. I can't speak for others.

come on there are a few out there who have condoned this action but have there own collections nameing no names

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P.S. Simon
Feel free to ban me for my comments,
Just can't help myself, god help you Stephen if you ever try that behavior in person

Please don't Simon. Jagman is erhemm...intemperate in his comments but he says what he thinks. And that IMHO should be encouraged. I often find I disagree with Jagman's opinions but I defend his right to state them. Having said that I must also concede that Stephen also has the same right though in his case I find myself more :curse: than :thumbup:

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come on there are a few out there who have condoned this action but have there own collections nameing no names

Again, I don't and I haven't.
You don't know me personally but there are plenty here that do and would be able to verify that.
I cannot dispute that it may happen but I can say categorically that it doesn't happen amongst the people whom I spend time underground with (at least certainly never in my presence)

i was not accuseing you personaly but there are some who have had a go at me for stealing minerals and they have stolen artifacts so is this not a bit hipocritical

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The function of a mine is the extraction of minerals, hair splitting about past and present tenses notwithstanding.

That's nonsensical. It is not hair-splitting to make a distinction between creating a mine and altering its remains. One is the by-product of an industrial process, the other is disturbance of historic remains.

Besides, mines commonly get reopened/reworked. So one can even argue that the purpose of a mine was, is and will be the extraction of minerals. That is why they are there. Accept it.

I absolutely accept what a mine was there for.

But... if you use your argument, it would be possible to draw a logical conclusion that it's okay to lob rocks at a castle with a trebuchet "because that's what it's there for".

There must remain a distinction between the present, the past and the future. Only a fraction of abandoned mines will be reworked: the possibility that one might be worked again does not justify robbing it in the present.

Nothing you say changes my arguments.

I am under no impressions that it might!

Minerals underground cannot be enjoyed by those above, cannot be effectively studied and are ultimately doomed to be sealed in unless collected first.

Forgive me here, but I'm going to need a couple of bits clarifying:

(i) why are photographs not good enough for the elderly, the infirm etc. not good enough?
(ii) what is it about certain minerals that might require their extraction in order that they be studied? Surely we're not finding things that are unique in British mines?
(iii) is there a requirement for the extraction of minerals from abandoned mines duie to the overwhelming pressure from the general public for them to be put on display so that they can be 'enjoyed'? Or are we talking about private collectors?

I do not disturb artifacts, having no particular interest in them, and no desire to damage them either, but the purpose of a mine is not the extraction of artifacts, although it could be argued that they too, are on death row. I do not disturb historical remains, or pull down hoppers etc. and resent being tarred with the same brush,

That's reassuring to know...

but do take the correct attitude that minerals once exposed, whether below or above ground, are doomed unless collected.

Bad stuff happens. The fact that something is 'doomed' does not require its removal - it merely makes that removal more justified. And using the NAMHO guidelines, such removal should only be done when it is known that permanent 'doom' is imminent.

I'll leave the artifact debate to those with an interest in them

That's good of you...

but anyone who tries to interfere with my collecting will be sent off with a flea in his ear. And I have done this on several occasions when self-righteous prigs and jobsworths have strutted up to me and huffed and puffed. I am not afraid to tell these miserable killjoys to their faces exactly what I think of them, and it is not complimentary. I find it ridiculously easy to refute their stupid, ignorant and pathetic arguments, so I do so and leave them to storm off in a huff. I have no respect for these people.

This is not the rhetoric of reason ;)

Anyone who thinks their interest should over-ride someone else's should be challenged to justify it.

Which is, I suspect what you have been attempting to do - albeit I'm not convinced...

So far I have seen no "justifications" adequate enough to justify preventing mineral collecting in all but a tiny number of cases.

Allow me to turn this around: under what circumstances do you think that you should be able to cause damage to a site in order to extract something?

Accordingly, I shall carry on collecting and not let my freedoms be taken from me without a fight. What are you going to do about it?

Short of offering to fight you in the playground, that's somthing I'm going to have to get back to you on ;)

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P.S. Simon
Feel free to ban me for my comments,
Just can't help myself, god help you Stephen if you ever try that behavior in person

Please don't Simon. Jagman is erhemm...intemperate in his comments but he says what he thinks. And that IMHO should be encouraged. I often find I disagree with Jagman's opinions but I defend his right to state them. Having said that I must also concede that Stephen also has the same right (though in his case I find myself more :curse: than :thumbup: )

Everyone has the right to their opinion (yes even Stephen) but I dispute the right of anyone to willfully destroy the fabric of a mine.
I particularly strongly dispute the right of anyone to profer veiled threats to anyone who may wish to object to their activities which is exactly what Stephen has done in posts on this thread.

Diddums.

Given that the Adit Now home page says:-

"AditNow is an information sharing resource and discussion forum for the mine exploration community as well as industrial archaeologists, researchers, historians and anybody with an interest in mine exploration or mining history. The site provides a searchable database of mines and quarries from across the UK, comprehensive information and thousands of mining photographs and documents."

It does make me wonder just what your motives were in joining a website and forum that plainly is not in keeping with your hobby (and vice versa).

Perhaps as a very recent member (only a couple of weeks) you should respect the views of people who run, maintain, or have been members for much longer, and do share the interests as above unlike yourself. :curse: