gNick
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10 years ago
Stainless doesn't conduct as well as aluminium but it does hold more energy and the bars have a larger surface area so will radiate the heat back out more effectively.

As said above, stainless racks are commonly used on big pitches in Leftpondia without any issue, mind they do have so many bars that they can be used as a ladder!
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Tony Blair
10 years ago
It's all about the U values. It's why you make heat exchangers out of copper and not ceramic.

The reason why SS holds more heat is that it's a poor conductor, which means it doesn't radiate it's heat effectively.

You could imagine it this way. If you were to take 2 blocks, one of SS and one of Ally and then heat them up to 100 degrees for hours, so they were 100 degrees right through and then chuck them in a bucket of cold water. The heat in the Ally one bucket would be passed to the water quicker. If you were to chop the blocks in half, there would be a sharper gradient of heat and a hotter core in the SS one.

The debatable point is whether you can dissipate the similar amount of heat via increasing the surface area, by using a tube. From what I remember you have 2 equations which can explain this.

Q=MCpdT where Q= the total amount of energy present. M= the mass of the stuff, Cp the specific heat capacity....how much energy it takes to heat stuff up by 1 degree and then the dT which is the temp change.

Then you have the other one, Q=UA LMTD. Where U=the sum of heat transfer coefficients (how porous the stuff is to heat....the key difference between ally and SS) A=the area for heat exchange to happen and LMTD the log mean temp difference.

The idea there being that you'd be able to analyse the Q gone into the bar by the first equation and knowing the mass of your lump. Then you'd be able to plug that into equation 2 and get a "what new surface area do I need if I make it out of SS" answer.

This would be an interesting thing for someone with more time on their hands to try out. HOWEVER, when the equation suggests "use a so and so % larger surface area" you can't just go assuming you can fit it all into a tube. The very nature of the U value problem meaning that the SS in the tube will not quickly reach an equilibrium temperature quickly. You'll have a cold back and a (very) hot front. You could reduce the mass of the material, which would mean that it reached operating temperature quicker and thus maximised the dT, which would efficiently shed heat, but the problem would be that it would be at a bloody hot temperature.

The alternative is to use loads of bars.

I've seen a few racks where they use a BIG ally no 2 bar and the rest are SS. This would work.

I think it's largely academic, because little people don't require as much friction to slow. So, it's the porkers and the bigger boned of us who create loads of heat and perhaps require bar heating to be considered in more detail.

I have glazed a rope using a petzl rack and share Rick's sentiment about bar wear. I have also considered SS bars and know they are faster....This means you would have to put more frictional area into play in order to gain the same friction/energy transfer.

My conclusion is that those people with the long racks have got the right idea. Spread the friction/wear/heating out.

This is an area I have given a fair bit of thought, with regards to getting some new bars made up.....(I have cained 2 racks to death in about 3 years)....so far the solution has been to buy another one!

I'll plug some numbers into the equations (and make some assumptions) and see what order of size we are talking about.

It would be interesting to measure the heat rise of 2 different weight cavers' 1 and 2 rack bars over an identical pitch with other variables the same....you could probably do this quite well by measuring the heat rise of a given amount of water in a set period of time by submerging them in a mug!!!!
gNick
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10 years ago
Interestingly, the amount of energy that can be absorbed by heating up the bars is a fraction of the energy that needs to be dissipated on descending; roughly for a 100kg person (yes I could lose weight but it would make all the calculations more twiddly 🙂 ) descending a 100m pitch they need to lose 100kJ.
To heat the top 2 bars on a Petzl rack up 100 degrees would only require about 7.3kJ
If it takes them 5 minutes to do the descent, that would be a power dissipation of 333W. Not surprising ropes can get glazed.
From some quick radiation calcs, which I need to check, if you had the top 2 bars of a Petzl rack heated to 100 degrees above ambient temperature, they would only dissipate heat at 5W.
This rather implies that the bulk of the energy dissipated from descending is not through the metal of the descender and therefore the thermal properties of the bar material is of secondary importance. I may of course be wrong...
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Tony Blair
10 years ago
Nice reply!

I suppose the rope would sink out a fair bit of heat.

I remember doing a 90m pitch with a wet rope and everything was cold as ice all the way down. Including my mating gear.

There has got to be a nice equilibrium in action at some point. I almost forgot about the time I picked up my rack when it was really hot and burned a "bar end" into the palm of my hand. I am familiar with ally getting very very very hot.

I am a fan of fat ropes and my usual weapons are 12mm cotesi black military stuff.

I can't say I've observed such extreme heating with smaller ropes, down to 9mm. This must be in part due to the greater air area. (dry rope).

I surmise that SS bars must get mega hot. I suppose if you are careful, this is hopefully less than the glaze point.

Back in the day, I'd quite often get my stop too hot to touch any of it. Part fast, part fat.

Roy Morton
10 years ago
I've heard it's standard practice on mega long pitches to take a water bottle to chill the bars from time to time. This was done when they descended El Capitan.
Has anyone ever experimented with different profile rack bars?
And yes, alloy rack bars (sounds like something terrorists shout) do dissipate heat quicker and cool faster than SS. So could a SS sleeved alloy bar be the answer?
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Morlock
10 years ago
"Roy Morton" wrote:

I've heard it's standard practice on mega long pitches to take a water bottle to chill the bars from time to time. ?



Old hat, 2.19 into video. Sorry, couldn't resist.



:offtopic:
gNick
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10 years ago
Alloy rack bars do dissipate heat more quickly but because they have a smaller surface are than the hollow stainless ones, there is less of a difference.
The significant issue is that for the figures I used above, the top 2 bars are only dissipating about 5W, once they have heated up to 100 degrees above ambient, which is not particularly significant when you have 333W to dissipate.
Probably more effective to soak your rope!
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Morlock
10 years ago
"gNick" wrote:

Probably more effective to soak your rope!



Would probably help prevent a 'hot stop' sheath burn but would make the rope a pain weight wise.
jones the slate
10 years ago
Back in the day, when I learnt SRT, the first rule taught was never descend a dry rope, always wet it first. Yes, they are heavier, but the idea if glazing a rope goes mostly away, and your rope lasts longer to boot 🙂.
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sinker
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10 years ago
"Roy Morton" wrote:



.....alloy rack bars (sounds like something terrorists shout).....



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Yma O Hyd....
gNick
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10 years ago
"gNick" wrote:

I now have some 8mm bar and Sch 40 tube to make my copy.
All I need to do now is excavate the workshop to get to the pillar drill and make a bending jig - only a couple of years work then!



Sunday saw the first try out of my stainless rack, on the 25m pitch from Admiralty flats in Haggs, though I did have a daylight trial beforehand.
Being a rank coward, I left the rope over the hyperbar which meant that I had to feed the rope making the trip down a bit slower than it could have been but it was a lot less jerky than the others who were all using Simples.
No appreciable heat build up though this was probably due to the M25 at rush hour descent speed!


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RJV
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10 years ago
"gNick" wrote:

Sunday saw the first try out of my stainless rack, on the 25m pitch from Admiralty flats in Haggs, though I did have a daylight trial beforehand.


Haven't been up there for a while.

It was a right old mess the last time we visited - have any of the modern miners taken it upon themselves to tidy up their workplaces in the last few years?

:offtopic:
gNick
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10 years ago
Equally :offtopic: but...

Yes, the place was immaculate - just as if they had never been there. Want to buy a time-share?
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Tamarmole
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10 years ago
"gNick" wrote:

"gNick" wrote:

I now have some 8mm bar and Sch 40 tube to make my copy.
All I need to do now is excavate the workshop to get to the pillar drill and make a bending jig - only a couple of years work then!



Sunday saw the first try out of my stainless rack, on the 25m pitch from Admiralty flats in Haggs, though I did have a daylight trial beforehand.
Being a rank coward, I left the rope over the hyperbar which meant that I had to feed the rope making the trip down a bit slower than it could have been but it was a lot less jerky than the others who were all using Simples.
No appreciable heat build up though this was probably due to the M25 at rush hour descent speed!



Could you post a picture or two.
Boy Engineer
10 years ago
Just made the mistake of searching for the term
Quote:

'hot stop' sheath burn

and wish I hadn't. Some disturbing photographs that make our usual fare on here look quite normal.
gNick
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10 years ago
Just out of the gear to be cleaned pile:



🔗100152[linkphoto]100152[/linkphoto][/link]

And cleaned up so you can see the nice bit of rope polish on the bars

🔗100153[linkphoto]100153[/linkphoto][/link]

Don't look so embarrassed, it's a family trait...
Tamarmole
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10 years ago
"gNick" wrote:

Just out of the gear to be cleaned pile:



🔗100152[linkphoto]100152[/linkphoto][/link]

And cleaned up so you can see the nice bit of rope polish on the bars

🔗100153[linkphoto]100153[/linkphoto][/link]



Cracking job. Mind you it is all down to the design ;)

exspelio
10 years ago
Yup!!, raight impressive,---:thumbup::thumbup:
Always remember, nature is in charge, get it wrong and it is you who suffers!.
Joanne
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10 years ago
"gNick" wrote:

Just out of the gear to be cleaned pile:

And cleaned up so you can see the nice bit of rope polish on the bars

🔗100153[linkphoto]100153[/linkphoto][/link]



I have a very similar BMS micro rack (but with two hyper bars) that I have been using for over 5 years and it's just starting to wear a bit on the bars (maybe a mil or so). I don't generally encounter muddy and wet ropes, but rather dirty dry ones. Even on a 60 to 70 meter drop, the bars never get too hot to touch. As much as I would love to fly down the rope, I try to moderate my enthusiasm so I don't overheat the bars and glaze the rope.

I'm one of the very few mine explorers out here that uses a rack, but I really like it.

Joanne
Tamarmole
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10 years ago
"Joanne" wrote:

"gNick" wrote:

Just out of the gear to be cleaned pile:

And cleaned up so you can see the nice bit of rope polish on the bars

🔗100153[linkphoto]100153[/linkphoto][/link]



I have a very similar BMS micro rack (but with two hyper bars) that I have been using for over 5 years and it's just starting to wear a bit on the bars (maybe a mil or so). I don't generally encounter muddy and wet ropes, but rather dirty dry ones. Even on a 60 to 70 meter drop, the bars never get too hot to touch. As much as I would love to fly down the rope, I try to moderate my enthusiasm so I don't overheat the bars and glaze the rope.

I'm one of the very few mine explorers out here that uses a rack, but I really like it.

Joanne



The design is based on and, indeed inspired by, the BMS micro. The key differences are that the frame is wider giving a wider range of lock off options. The frame, at least on the one I use, is shorter than the BMS; my thinking being that over here we tend not to use uber stiff11mm pit ropes so we don't need to spread the bars quite so far apart.

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