It's not a bad idea to go do one of the weekend SRT courses offered by cave instructors if you can afford it.
You get to use their kit and can be talked through negotiating rebelays and extricating yourself from whatever tangles you manage to get yourself into somewhere dry, safe and well lit, with an instructor a few feet away instead of halfway down a wet muddy shaft with you trying to describe your predicament to someone almost out of earshot :)

I mention this only since I had to climb up under someone stuck on a rebelay and cut them free last week.
::)

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No love for the Anthron here?

Only kidding... it's a pig to descend on if you have muddy rope. :lol:
I ended up bouncing down the shaft at Moel Fferna in an effort to get some movement going, and I'm not a Racing Snake.

I use a Stop, without a braking crab, and everything seems fine to me. Racks just strike me as fiddly for re-belaying, and I probably won't bother with one unless I start to get on lots of long, single pitches.

I'll second going on a short SRT course, it did me wonders, even if it was only a day.

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I went on a club SRT evening, did wonders as you say. I've done plenty in the past, but it was useful to refresh in a controlled environment.

I was also helped in the efficient setup of my system. That's important, as quite often people 'make do'.

I was also helped in the efficient setup of my system. That's important, as quite often people 'make do'.

"Tuning your kit" does indeed make a vast difference in how tired you get. I think I am the limiting factor in my kit now, rather than the way it's set up. If your Croll is 3 feet away from your chest when ascending, it's a lot harder to get up the rope.

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I have to agree with Stuey about the figure 8 descender; it will kink ropes like crazy, and the longer the rope the worse it gets.
Any descender that operates in a linear fashion is preferable to one that twists the rope around tight bends.
I use a Rack as my preferred device followed by the Stop if I'm working in a shaft cutting hitches or whatever.
I sometimes use a figure 8 for belaying when lowering kit down a pitch (light loads) and use dynamic rope NOt static.
I've had a crack on just about everything including using an Italian hitch on a steel Krab...OK for a small inclined pitch where death is not a possibility.
The 5 bar Rack is said to have been invented in 1966 by John Cole, and has been hailed by seasoned in oak experts as 'the best all-round descending device ever invented'. :thumbsup:
Its beauty is inits simplicity and tha fact that you can vary the friction on the device to suit your descent...as you go!
Your right hand acts as the brake hand down by your hip, and your left controls the position of the bars to increase or decrease your rate of descent.
Great performance on wet and inherently slippy ropes, use all 5 bars and push them up tight. A Stop type device is tickier having to employ the use of a brake Krab to get the extra friction.
Variable friction is the safe way to go.. :thumbsup:

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Its just horses for courses really.

I'm sure if you came to a pitch with 5 rebelays you would be cursing the fact that you left your stop at home in favour of the rack.

If there was really a single 'best' descender for all situations this thread would have ended instantly.

Upon reflection on the previous comment, most people are unlikely to own one of every type of descender and even more unlikely to want to carry them all on an exploration trip where the pitches are unknown.

The keypoint in all of this is to be familiar with how to get the best from your preferred descender in all situations. :flowers:

I certainly wouldn't use a figure 8 where there are re-belays. You have to remove the device completely from your harness, unlike the others. I've used two stops for pitches with multiple re-belays, it speeds progress very nicely :thumbup:

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I'm not sure is I am any better off now as I now only know that you all have different opinions...

Starting with the basics, what would be a good harness? The Avanti seems a good go but chest tape or Torse? I'm looking at the Inglesport Standard SRT kit as it seems pretty good value...

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The torse is probably fine for those the size of a small child. Those amongst us of a more manly build might find that they pull the harness up excessively at the back & that they are hard work to fasten in which case a normal strap/tape is far better.

Best harness for the north peninnes would be a standard caving harness, namely one which there isn't too much of to get filthy & waterlogged and won't be pulling the roof down as you're going through endless shale crawls. Majority of the day-to-day pitches are sub-20 metres so comfort is not really a factor. Don't suppose the actual brand is to much of an issue, they all do much the same.

Being over 6ft and not a racing snake I also found the 'Torse' a complete pain.

I'm 5'7" and a racing snake.

Torse is fine 😉

I'm not sure is I am any better off now as I now only know that you all have different opinions...

Starting with the basics, what would be a good harness? The Avanti seems a good go but chest tape or Torse? I'm looking at the Inglesport Standard SRT kit as it seems pretty good value...

your best bet really is to go and try them out! the shops will let you try them on- and should have somewhere they can string a rope up so you can sit your weight in it to see what's confortable for you.

I'd second (or it may be third) going on an SRT training course, there are plenty of them around. I don't know whereabouts you're based but if you struggle to find one i'm sure someone on here can point you at an instructor! :thumbup:

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The torse is probably fine for those the size of a small child. Those amongst us of a more manly build might find that they pull the harness up excessively at the back & that they are hard work to fasten in which case a normal strap/tape is far better.

I'll second this... sort of. I like the Torse just fine (6'3" and medium build), but my brother, although shorter at 6'0", is build like a brick outhouse. We had a lot of trouble doing it up, so I'll be sorting him out with some nice, wide tape.

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I found the best way to deal with the Torse (too short for me too, and I'm not that big, just a longer torso than many) is to run a small (4 or 5mm) maillon onto my harness belt, and then connect a 7mm delta maillon to that at the point end, and the flat end to the Torse. It works a treat, is ultra-tough, and gave me the extra few cm to make it comfortable. Plus it stops the Torse strap from abrading away at the fold-over point.

BTW, I never undo my Torse strap, but just step into it as the first 'loop' of my harness, followed by the belt, then the leg-loops, and just pull it over my shoulders - it's a lot easier than trying to fasten the damn thing, especially if it's encrusted in mud from the last trip - which is most of the time.

I was also helped in the efficient setup of my system. That's important, as quite often people 'make do'.

"Tuning your kit" does indeed make a vast difference in how tired you get. I think I am the limiting factor in my kit now, rather than the way it's set up. If your Croll is 3 feet away from your chest when ascending, it's a lot harder to get up the rope.

This might possibly be the best srt advice I've seen. I recently spent a couple of evenings setting up my kit properly - it has made a whole world of difference, so much so that I am almost enjoying srt.

Getting the croll as tight as possible seems to be about the best thing one can do.

This might possibly be the best srt advice I've seen. I recently spent a couple of evenings setting up my kit properly - it has made a whole world of difference, so much so that I am almost enjoying srt.

Getting the croll as tight as possible seems to be about the best thing one can do.

I'm glad it helped.

I am limited now by using a Climbing harness (DMM Brenin), rather than a caving one. I much prefer it though (I tried a Singing rock digger), and will accept that the tradeoff is that the Croll will sit higher. I don't have to mess around as I find myself doing with a "caving" harness, with a Climbing one, I just step right into it, and tighten it up. The only fuss when SRT'ing is me and my rather intense dislike for heights when not attached to a rope.

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Going back to earlier comments regarding racks, in this part of the world I am aware of two incidents revolving racks, one fatal and the other involving a badly smashed ankle from when a supposedly properly locked off rack became unlocked rather two easily (the latter involving a very experienced and professionally trained caver). In the time that SRT has been used around here at a rough guess stops have been used perhaps 10 times as much as racks, with as far as I am aware no incidents revolving injury. Statistically therefore everything is in favour of the stop.
There have been issues with "clutch and plummet" regarding stops, they do require proper training for novices. This was brought up at LCMLA assessors' workshops I attended, & I am sure elsewhere, the general conclusion was that part of the problem was failure to use a braking krab. The latter should always be used, particularly for novices. Often on a stiffer rope with a new stop there is plenty of friction without a braking krab, but with wear from use & a faster rope this is often not the case.

Ali, I gather the Wheal Edward incident where that girl died was back in the day of clippy bars. It has been a long time since these were the norm. You can rig a rack with 5 clippy bars backwards and when you load it "ping ping ping" plummet. You can't load a Petzl rack, or a later Caving Supplies one backwards.

I have a mate with a clippy bars rack and if I can see that if you were less than 100% on the case, you could quite easily load it backwards with the associated plummet.

My Stop does not stop unless locked off. It creeps, and does, unless checked, pick up speed. I need to get a really muddy, nasty, rope through it I think, mine is a little too pristine to get any wear on the bobbin.

However, I can't honestly see a need for myself to use a braking crab. Maybe for a long pitch, if you think your braking/control arm will get tired.

That being said, that's specific to me, everyone else will vary in weight(!), ability (Novices should use every advantage they can get), what they are comfortable with. Horses for Courses.

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