I am looking to get into this SRT lark as mines seem to have excessive amounts of vertical stuff. The problem is what to buy for a non-racing snake 40 something?

So what harness, which ascenders and rack or stop? Maillons or crabs? Cheesegrater?

I would assume my elderly climbing harness isn't going to be any good but are the crabs & slings OK?

Simple questions that I'm sure most of you are all wondering how I know so little but everybody's got to start somewhere
:confused:

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My current rig consists of:
Petzl Super Avanti harness with steel D maillon
Petzl Stop descender connected to harness by oval steel crab
Petzl Croll Chest Jammer (direct into harness maillon)
Petzl chest strap into jammer with small delta maillon
Petzl Handled Jammer connected to security link and footloop by steel, oval crab. (recently replacing a petzl basic which in turn replaced a Clog jammer of dubious parentage).
Cows tails - 10mm dynamic rope with two ally DMM snap carbiners.
Security link - 11mm dynamic rope
Footloop - 11mm static rope

A couple of extra crabs are also usefull as is some variety of knife.

Most suppliers of caving kit will do a basic srt bundle which will get you up and down a rope for around £200. In the past I have used Inglesport at Ingleton who I have always found to be really helpfull

99% of Northerners seem to use a fairly standard caving set-up not dissimilar to Tamarmole's and as sold in standard packages by most of the caving shops.

If you look at similar threads across the mining forums you'll find all sorts of recommendations for tree surgeons harnesses and absurdly bulky & expensive descenders which are probably fine in roomy Welsh quarries but would be nothing but a misery in the likes of Brownley or Caplecleugh.

I'd suggest starting out with the "standard" rig too, then alter it to suit your own preferences as you get more experienced. The rack, for example , is great for long pitches but a faff on multiple short ones so you're better off starting out with a stop or a simple descender. I'd suggest adding a foot jammer to the list of kit though, as it makes going up easier!

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As Tamarmole says most of the caving shops will supply a complete kit e.g.

http://www.inglesport.com/shop/category/53/Complete-SRT-Kit/ 

Don't use slings as cowstails... watch the video on this page!

http://dmmclimbing.com/knowledge/how-to-break-nylon-dyneema-slings/ 

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Always a bit surprised shops still sell snaplink krabs for cowstails, you really want screwgates.

Always a bit surprised shops still sell snaplink krabs for cowstails, you really want screwgates.

Had this conversation only last night, I use twistlocks, my friend was using screwgates and we agreed that both gave more security. But almost everybody else I know uses snaplinks.

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Always a bit surprised shops still sell snaplink krabs for cowstails, you really want screwgates.

Had this conversation only last night, I use twistlocks, my friend was using screwgates and we agreed that both gave more security. But almost everybody else I know uses snaplinks.

What do you use for climbing when there's a moving rope pulling through them?

One and possibly the biggest problem in SRT seems to be people getting Hung up at rebelays etc. Wouldn't the extra faff of screwgates just magnify that? A well placed krab is as good as impossible to unload, regardless of what type of gate is has.

if you dont do the screw up on a screwgate then you effectively have a snapgate, but if your working at a pitch and bolting then you can easily unload and knock a crab off with moving around. Climbing is a different thing your not really hanging around in one location so being about to move quickly and easily is essential

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Always a bit surprised shops still sell snaplink krabs for cowstails, you really want screwgates.

Had this conversation only last night, I use twistlocks, my friend was using screwgates and we agreed that both gave more security. But almost everybody else I know uses snaplinks.

What do you use for climbing when there's a moving rope pulling through them?

One and possibly the biggest problem in SRT seems to be people getting Hung up at rebelays etc. Wouldn't the extra faff of screwgates just magnify that? A well placed krab is as good as impossible to unload, regardless of what type of gate is has.

I quite agree. Snapgates for runners; but screwgates for belays; and if threading at a lower off point or similar.

Twistlock karabiners for cowstails are just my personal preference, I find them as easy to use as a normal snapgate, bigger (so easier to clip stuff) but if I want to hang somewhere for a while or I'm faffing around with something I feel happier with them :thumbsup:

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I am a big chap and I found a Stop a nasty thing to use. I had a new one and it was jerky, squeezing the handle hurt my hand and mucking about with a braking crab.....well you might not need one, but it may be too late if you do....was a pain.

I converted to a rack and have never looked back. It is smooth and very controllable and what you don't need is to be shitting yourself at height because your descender has jammed and then dropping 10ft when it decides to un-jam.

If you are less than a sportsman, a foot ascender is a fine thing. Get the opposite foot to your hand ascender. That way you have one side as hand ascender and foot loop and the other as foot ascender. I use a left handleless jammer and a right foot ascender. Oddly enough, I find it odd how most RH people get a RH jammer. My logic was that being right handed, I wanted to fiddle with the catch with my RH.

Inglesport or Caving Supplies often do a bundle. I'd buy a basic bundle (with handless ascender) and then add a Rack and a RH foot ascender.

All the cavers use Stops and swear by them. I just avoid rebelays, or use bits of carpet instead!

Do what i did....

1. See what others are using, ask nicely to try it out, and blatently copy what they use if it works for you?

2. Don't buy ANYTHING until you have personally tried it and are happy with it! Wasted money spoils the experience....

3. Keep it simple....don't try to re-invent the wheel.

4. Practice, practice, practice.

5. Enjoy!

:thumbsup:

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if you dont do the screw up on a screwgate then you effectively have a snapgate, but if your working at a pitch and bolting then you can easily unload and knock a crab off with moving around. Climbing is a different thing your not really hanging around in one location so being about to move quickly and easily is essential

Unscrewed screwgates have been tested to be weaker than a snapgate.
What happened to the old figure of eight descender?, I always found them very handy on short pitches (up to ,say, 30ft), longer pitches, a rack.

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I've adopted the 'rope access' method of cowstails with a very short loop between the two normal lengths - this has a snapgate on, specifically for downward rebelays. I use screwgates on the main two, in case I have to 'hang around' and for extra security generally. It's virtually impossible for the snapgate to come off, as it's always loaded. The main advantage is that the distance you need to stand up to unload it is negligible, and makes multiple downward rebelays a lot less tiring.

I use a maillon to connect my jammer to the harness, and if I need to use the jammer to stand up with at rebelays, I put a steel krab into the maillon, and then clip the krab into the bolt. I don't like the idea of having the jammer permanently on the krab only, as the possibility of dropping the jammer is much higher!

OK does anyone in the Durham/North East area have a spare SRT kit I could borrow to get the feel of what I do and don't like?

If you'll drag me through some SRT routes as well that would be handy!

Thinks, what else can I try and blag! :angel:

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if you dont do the screw up on a screwgate then you effectively have a snapgate, but if your working at a pitch and bolting then you can easily unload and knock a crab off with moving around. Climbing is a different thing your not really hanging around in one location so being about to move quickly and easily is essential

Unscrewed screwgates have been tested to be weaker than a snapgate.
What happened to the old figure of eight descender?, I always found them very handy on short pitches (up to ,say, 30ft), longer pitches, a rack.

Whilst figure of 8s give a nice ride they have problems:

They are difficult to lock off, a feature which is fairly essential in all but the simplest rope work.

They put a cumulative twist in the rope which can cause the descender to jam (I onece saw this happen on a very wet pitch in the Swinsto Hole in the Dales - could have been very nasty).

Just to reinforce what has been said, a Fig-8 is very difficult and fiddly to lock off quickly and securely & a rack is not much better.
Regarding the use of rope protectors rather than rebelays, there are obviously places where that is unavoidable but one of the basic principals of SRT (doesn't matter whether its a mine or a cave) is that you rig to avoid objective dangers - such as loose rock, rub points, water etc. Usually this will involve rebelays or some other similar technique.
If people want to use dinosaur techniques that's up to them but I think they should keep that to themselves & not recommend it on an open forum like this.
Regarding twist locks, the type where you have to slide back and twist is probably best but I find they can become difficult to use in muddy conditions (& can get hopelessly clogged up) so prefer screwgates. Have seen a straight screwgate open by a very slight rub against a rock, fortunately it was only holding a rope bag. Had to go out & get another rope so we could retrieve it.

Just to reinforce what has been said, a Fig-8 is very difficult and fiddly to lock off quickly and securely & a rack is not much better.

Best you learn how to lock a rack off properly then.

I've always found it easy and secure.

.....avoid rebelays, or use bits of carpet instead!

:lol:

Reference Llanberis "Keep" pit.....does moss count as a rope protector? 😉

Disclaimer: this is an "in" joke between 4 people who know who they are and is in no way meant to endorse the use of vegetation in SRT or to prolong a discussion on the subject :angel: :lol: :lol: :lol:

:offtopic: Sorry.

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I have noticed that chums who use fig 8's (of which there are several very well seasoned Cornish explorers who do) my rope is twisted afterwards....

I wish they would get racks.