According tp Structural Images of the Northeast it's a northern quarryman's name for any fine grained, dark grey/black to green coloured igneous rock. Index with specific stone type where given.

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I'm aware of the Whin Sill, a sheet of intrusive quartz-dolerite or quartz-basalt, unique in Britain as it is exposed from the Farnes to Teesdale. Is this one and the same, or is it another but similar intrusion? Why mine it?
Quartz-dolerite quarry! :stupid:

In the case of this region of Scotland, it is technically known as quartz-dolerite. Similar to basalt, except that it was formed as an intrusion, and cooled slowly deep underground, so much larger crystals formed. Formed at even greater depth, cooled more slowly, you get gabbro, with even larger crystals, and very hard.

The dolerite family of rocks form dykes and sills, and in the area we are discussing, there are risers between levels of the sill, which, were they to be exposed by erosion, would seem to be dykes at the surface.

Unfortunately although it has some excellent properties (chips are used on road surfaces, because it is hard-wearing, also as an aggregate in concrete),quartz-dolerite weathers dangerously, and is generally unsafe for rock climbing. There was a large rock fall not far from the Craigend adit around 1962, and an older one, downstream a bit, maybe 20 years earlier, judging by the degree of weathering. Loose boulders often detach themselves from the exposed parts of the Stirling Sill, and not so long ago, one fell from the Abbey Craig and resulted in the A907 being closed at Causewayhead, not for the first time.

The cliffs at Craigend and Murrayshall are definitely not for climbing.

If it contains lots of fractures, it is also unsafe underground, and permeable to water. But often it is ok underground, except near faults. The adjacent rock will have been severely heated, you might get marble where limestone is present, although I have never seen any in Craigend, just limestone baked very hard. But you do get marble, or something very similar, at Blochairn limestone mine near Milngavie, which from memory would seem to be at NS591758. Behind a waterfall, under the road, I seem to recall. Doesn't go far in, but lots of stoop and room working.

Alan

Gwyn,

They did only quarry the quartz-dolerite. The mines were for limestone.

Q-D is not sufficiently valuable to justify mining, and is used in bulk. The limestone was used in limekilns of modest capacity to make quicklime, so was extracted more slowly, in late 19th century economic conditions, while the Q-D quarries are recent.

Alan

Gwyn,

I only read half your post at the first attempt. To answer your other question, the great Whin Sill is not thought to be part of the same intrusion, although obviously it has some similarities.

No-one knows the origin of the Stirling Sill, i.e. where it rises from the depths, as no-one has ever spent lots of money boring way below the coal seams, and likely never will. But there are risers along the Ochil Fault, likely not the main source.

A Q-D intrusion underlies much of Central Scotland, no-one knows whether it is contiguous or not, but probably not.

The Stirling Sill dips to the east, as is obvious at the surface, however as you go east, it rises into the coal measures, and then follows the dip downwards again. The strata remaining at Craighead and Murrayshall are below coal measures, right down at the base of the Carboniferous.

The deepest amount of sinking in the coal basins as coal was being formed seems to have been at several spots, easy of Alva being one, near Gartarry Toll another, and it might be inferred that the sinking was caused by magma (from which Q-D originated) being liberated from below that point. But no-one knows, and I am a mere amateur geologist, and lapsed at that.

But it is interesting that the deep coal basin just east of Alva (too deep to have been mined, yet) is immediately adjacent to the point of greatest vertical movement of the Ochil Fault, which was at least 5km. Yes, the matching half of the Ochil Hills, complete, probably, with veins of copper and silver, lies at least 4.5km below the visible surface, and below the entire carboniferous succession. That is one big fault! The Ochils are Old Red Sanstone vintage.

We could then speculate about the riser(s) which brought up the basalt lava forming the Ochils. Likely somewhere near where I have just described.

So maybe the sill originated from the same deep-seated hot spot that was the source of the Ochil Hills much earlier. Or maybe not.... If someone wants to fund maybe 20 (unless we were lucky the first time, of course, but drilling blindly , that seems unlikely) deep bores (over 5km), we could find out.

But sadly, I think we will never know.

Alan

Thank you for that most comprehensive explanation, Alan.
So the mine was originally for limestone. Was this a local necessity because it couldn't be quarried? Agricultural lime or for building mortar?
I was wondering why on earth anyone would mine Q-D! Self mortification! Cheers, Gwyn.

Gwyn,

Yes, I can definitely confirm agricultural use. The soil in the Bannock valley has a high clay content, which is somewhat acidic, and it needed the addition of lime, calcium hydroxide, to make it more fertile. So they roasted the limestone, calcium carbonate, with coal, in the kilns to produce calcium oxide, and then slaked it in slaking pits, basically just adding water (lots of heat is produced) to make the hydroxide, which was then spread on the fields.

I used to live at NS793911, went to school at NS794909, and the farmer at NS789907, just across a few fields, used to spread lime regularly in the late 1950s. We could see him doing it from the school windows, as most of the classrooms faced south. The fields would have white streaks for a few weeks afterwards, if the weather was dry, even after it was ploughed in. We invariably hears the twice-daily blasting at Murrayshall Q-D Quarry too.

But wondering about the railway connection to the most recent kilns, I wonder if later on, they did produce lime for building use too (the manufacturing process is the same). In that case, the workings under Gillies Hill are likely to be more extensive than I had imagined. But on the other hand, it would have been the easiest way of getting coal to the Cambusbarron kilns. The most westerly point of the coalfield is at NS801898, but I know that is more recent than all of the limestome workings, and think that the coal would have originated at NS802878 in the beginning, which was not too bad for Murrayshall, but very awkward for Cambusbarron.

Late 19th century, when Cambusbarron was operating, the nearest coal mine would be Bannockburn, NS835885, which was rail-connected.

By the way, the road at NS780901 was very well constructed ( I saw a cross-section when a trench was dug for a water pipeline from North Third to Grangemouth, and again for the oil pipeline from Finart to Grangemouth), yet it is very deeply rutted by wagon wheels, and nothing but transporting coal to the kilns would have accounted for such a high volume of traffic. Local opinion is that it was used to take the limestone to the Carron Iron Works, as limestone is used in steel-making, as a flux. But it does not get processed in kilns first, and the arrays of kilns at Craigend, Murrayshall and Cambusbarron are quite extensive, so we can demolish that theory. Anyway, the Carron Iron Company mined their limestone locally, with the coal and some ironstone, around Stenhousemuir.

I do hope some real Industrial Archaeologists get interested in this area, as there is probably a lot that we don't yet know.

Alan

just came across your fascinating discussion on Murrayshall Whinstone mine
I am a resident of Cambusbarron and regularly walk around the quarry (no CCTV, barbed wire or security guards) My interest started with being heavily involved in a local campaign to "Save Gillies Hill" from a very much alive proposal to re-activate the whinstone quarry. An action group has been formed for over a year (savegillieshill.org.uk) to actively campaign against the re-activation. My part in the campaign has been to concentrate on the "quarrying issues" leaving the flora,fauna, landscape, traffic etc issues to others. This has led me inevitably off in different directions and I have now developed an interest in the local limeworkings especially as they might run under my house!

few questions
The deepest areas of Murrayshall at the moment at NS 771915 are at approx 125m OD. Is this likely to be the top of the Murrayshall limestone layer?

Puzzled at reference to "shaft" at NS773917. At this location halfway up the wooded section of Gillieshill there appears to be a "cave" opening which appears to go in horizontally. Sorry I haven't the courage yet to explore to any depth!, I would have estimated it to be in the middle of the QD sill? Is this a lime adit? There is a vertical air shaft at NS775922.
I have a plan of Cambusbarron Limeworkings in 1910 which shows the railway from the Cambusbarron adit to the main Forth and Clyde Junction Railway. How do I attach this onto this site??

Doug,

Thanks for that info, and welcome to Aditnow. I have not been here for very long myself. I only came here because I was dreaming about Murrayshall and did a Google search. Glad I did too, this site is truly fascinating!

I think you have given me something to look at on my next visit to Scotland (in about a month), as my memory seems to need refreshing. I was sure that the mine in the middle of the woods was the shaft, indeed old-maps.co.uk shows it as such on the 1922 1:10560 sheet. It was thought to be an air shaft. But if you know of an adit, that is interesting. A second air shaft where you indicate would not be surprising. Someone described that one to me once, but I have never seen it.

I don't have any definite knowledge of the base level of the dolerite, which slopes down to the east, but it is at the base of Murrayshall quarry, which as you suggest is about 125 metres on the OS map, but maybe 70 or 80 metres at the Cambusbarron quarry. Murrayshall mine was level with the top of the Murrayshall kilns, and the base of the quarry. The limestone is likely to be consistently just below that, as there is no obvious indication of major faulting. If there is a mine in the woods, it may go into the limestone, and if so it will confirm my guess that two distinct strata have been mined, as the adit by Hayford Mills would have been down at about 12 to 15 metres, and the strata do not seem to slope that steeply. Unless there is a vein of something else, which would be a complete surprise! You don't usually get major mineralisation in dolerite, although there is reputedly a lead (galena) vein in Northfield Quarry, further south in the same sill.

Thinking about this some more, the dolerite may have divided around an area of limestone, so there may have been a pocket of rather well-baked limestone in the middle, which may be what was mined in the middle of the woods. Only a guess, so far.

When I find the geology book which has some more detailed info, I may be able to clarify things.

By the way, you are right to be wary of entering the adit. I suspect the possibility of a rather deep shaft to a lower level. I don't enter Craigend adit nowadays, it was scary enough in 1967, and will not have improved. You would definitely need a hard hat and headlamp, with spare torch as backup, as a very minimum. The hard hat is not to protect against roof falls (it won't) but only to avoid banging your head. It still is unpleasant even with a hat.

Are you able to confirm that the adit by Hayford Mills is still there? There is some doubt, and I fear that it may have been reduced to a mere drain pipe in the interests of safety.

As to the old plans, if they are out of copyright (all OS maps pre 1957 are, Crown Copyright is 50 years from the end of the year of first publication, and 70 years for anything else, except where there is one identifiable author, i.e. not an organisation, which makes it 70 years from the death of the author), then I would be inclined to scan them and convert to jpeg, then post as photographs. I have not posted anything like that here yet, the "management" and regulars will be able to assist.

I see that Gillies Hill is frequented by far more people than when I was young. In those days the gate at Gillies Hill road was often locked, but some time ago, the gate had fallen off its hinges, and more recently, disappeared completely. Good thing too! There were other ways in, of course. It is important that the quarrying does not go ahead, it would be a terrible loss, and there is plenty of dolerite in other, less socially useful, places.

I think there is much yet to discover and document. It is good to see that people are actually interested. Few cared when I was young, maybe the internet has awakened interest.

Best regards,

Alan

Alan
Thanks for that. I posted a reply yesterday but it seems to have got lost in the ether.

I have been looking at various documents over the last few days, a geology of Stirling district and my recently purchased solid gelogy map of the area.

As I said I started looking at Murrayshall Quarry as part of our campaign to stop (or limit) the reactivation of Murrayshall Quarry. My research has taken me into the limeworking subject for both historical and current hard rock quarrying reasons.

The main limestone layer shown on the geological map is the Murrayshall Limestone MU. The level of the road adjacent to the Murrayshall kilns is about 91OD and taking the mine to be as you say at level of top of kilns, say 94m. With the dip to the east ( and slightly to N) then it is likely that it is well below the main excavation base level in Murrayshall Quarry of approx 125m.

I am also interested in the MU layer workings in the Cambusbarron area, especially as the workings could be underneath my house!. I will not make a general post of this map as I am not sure on copyright. I will try to post some photograhs taken today of the mine entrance near Hayford Mill, NS 277470,692680. The mine entrance is a brick arch 12 in thick : span 6ft 6in : rise from bed 5ft : semi circular shape . The arch just at the entrance has lost quite a few bricks but he general shape did not appear deformed. All sizes are estimates since I didn't have a tape with me! The level of the entrance could be about 13m OD

The tunnel from this location climbs at gradient (?) to the maze of limeworkings at 277400,692250. The plan referred to shows an adit at 277030,692180 fairly close to the position of MU on geological map. My estimated level at this point 70m OD. Dip shown on geological map near this location is 10 deg NNE. This information combines to give a level at the top end of the access tunnel of approx 26m OD. If the tunnel then falls at a steady gradient to the entrance at Hayford Mill then the gradient would be approx 1:40 --seems to tie in ?

Taking the MU layer up into Gillies Hill to the adit/shaft that we discussed earlier would give a level of 85m OD which is approximately the GL near this opening. I would guess therefore that it is an adit into the MU layer. I have not measured the opening but it appears to be 4ft across by maybe 5ft high, cut out of QD face with no masonry surround. It is located at approx 277500,692800 and it is within the area marked on the plan for the extent of the tunnels.

Hope this helps and would be willing to show you any of the locations on site when you come up to the area in May June?, together with plans which I hold of the area.

Douglas

Douglas,

Your private message did arrive and I will reply in detail once the moderators have set up my access to the PM system. Naturally, I am in full agreement with their desire to prevent spamming.

I will be in the area around 15th-20th May. We can discuss that privately, hopefully all interested parties will be available, and yes, I almost certainly do know PP.

Meanwhile, let us consider the masses of information you have added to what we already knew or suspected. It gets even more fascinating, because why did they bother to tunnel all the way down to Hayford Mill? The tramway could seemingly just as well have run on the surface. By the way, thanks for confirming that the entrance is still open, there had been some doubt.

As this part of the workings was definitely in the steam age, I am wondering if one of the upper entrances (no longer sure how many there are, they seem to be increasing!) may well have been the site of an engine used to pull the empty wagons up the gradient. They could of course have used a gravity-worked system, as the overall flow of material is downhill, and the empty wagons returning up hill would be lighter, but I don't know if the tunnel is wide enough.

Funnily enough, the remaining adit at Craigend also involves some seemingly unnecessary tunnelling, as it runs almost parallel to the cliff face, not directly under it, for some distance, with minimal cover. But that one was worked by simple hand carts underground, and probably horse and cart for coal and finished product on the surface.

Thinking about why I found Aditnow, and the Gillies Hill campaign, I would think that if we can establish that there are extensive workings under the village, as seems certain, and considering the possible shocks imparted by quarry blasting, the planners may well take the cautious view, rather than risk considerable damage.

I don't think the workings will be an any immediate danger of collapse, as they will be fairly dry, draining towards Hayford Mill, and it was the presence of lots of water, for a long period of time, at Gilmerton that caused the collapses there.

What would concern me most is that the flooded eastern end of Murrayshall Quarry must be above the closed Murrayshall adit, which probably connects with the entire Cambusbarron system, so some slightly careless quarrying, or unexpected geology, could unleash a flood through the system. I don't know, from the aerial photos, whether this is just a big puddle, or deep water.

If we can find something unusual or unique about the mine workings, it may be a good reason to avoid their destruction.


Best regards,

Alan

Something new (well very old, but not seen for a long time) to explore. Read on....

Doug45 and I went up for a look the other day, and it seems that my memory was slightly faulty. The air shaft is definitely at NS775922, as doug45 said, but well obscured by debris and probably minus its original grille. I have never seen the adit at NS773917, which is in the whinstone. We will talk about that another time. Too many conflicting theories and not much evidence, yet. But if you do go there, please take a digging implement, and fix the water level, by removing some debris outside. And, we would just love to know what delights may lie within. I predict a 75% probability that it ends in a heap of QD fragments, less than 20 years old, originating from surface blasting, through which water will be percolating. But if not, it may tell us another strange tale.

But I was not able to confirm exact grid refs by GPS, too many trees.

Some research is under way to attempt to understand the complexities of the Gillies Hill workings, but doug45 and myself do seem to concur that the south workings at Murrayshall are not connected to the north workings at Cambusbarron. Now that may disappoint some people, myself included, but this will not:

An adit at Murrayshall is now open, almost. The adit I knew of is now rather well obscured, as mud has washed down between the QD boulders covering the entrance, and moss has grown rapidly. The position is clearly still marked by a low wall running out from the face of the hill, on the working platform at the top of kiln level, towards the north end of the kiln bank. And, you would need very heavy equipment, we are talking of 100 tonnes of QD chunks, or more, probably all loose and unstable. But, an adit I did not know of has become visible, due to the roots of two fallen trees tearing out its cover of QD boulders. It should be quite obvious, behind kilns 1 and 2 (counting from the south end). You may need to clear a bit more out before entering.

OK, who is going to be the first? I am back in London, sadly, but whoever gets there first may care to look at wull's recent post under North Third and maybe look in two holes for the price of one.....

Have fun!

Best regards to all,

Alan

I found this thread via Google and had to join. What a wealth of info.
I was amazed to read that some of these old mines are still open, what with today's health & safety mad PC-ness and all.
We used to play in those mines (the lime caves we called them) as children, using the torches from our 'Adventure Kits' as light. I haven't been near them in over 20 years.
I regularly took my kids walking to Sauchie Craig and through the woods when they were young, but it never occurred to me to look for the mines. I don't think I'd be too keen to go poking around nowadays anyway, I'm not as brave (stupid) as I was at 10 years old. I assume you chaps and chapesses all have caving gear when you visit these old drifts etc.

I don't know if the proper caving gear would stop a roof fall! In the 1960's it was just a torch and wellingtons, not even a hard hat. But the partly collapsed arch in the Craigend adit was really scary!

But I am planning to look at the partially open Murrayshall adit, and the wet one in the middle of the Gillies Hill, sometime soonish, and will be using a hard hat.

I don't believe that there will be any climbing involved, but I am concerned that the roof may be shale in places. That does collapse readily.

Hopefully some time in the next few months there will be a report coming, unless some of the locals beat me to it.

Oh, and I will post pictures of the two blocked entrances at Craigend when I get time. Could not get GPS fixes, as the trees were too thick, but I may try again in winter when there will be fewer leaves.

Alan

I just took a walk up to what we called the lime caves as kids. The entrance to one is fenced off, and the others seem to have been covered by falling rocks.

I am assuming this is the one you refer to as Craigend, as it is fairly near Wester Craigend. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Tazmaniandevil,

Yes, that is the only remaining known adit in the Craigend Lime Works, as the area is called on old maps. I would be very interested to know which other adit you know, which was still open, especially as there is a post here from wull, who has been in an adit near North Third fishery. When I was young, we all thought that we knew them all! Wrong, I think. Maybe if you can give approximate distance and direction from the adit in your picture, it may tie in with one that is known or suspected.

I know of two others (pictures will be added soon) which are covered by boulders. One, the lowest, has a very obvious drain taking a significant amount of water to the Bannock Burn, while the other, higher and further south-west, was simply covered by boulders, which were fairly old even in the 1960s.

But there have been at least two landslides between the lower and middle (open) adits, one quite old, and the other around 1962. These are just at the top of the slope where the path, which becomes narrower, comes up from the lower level, and before you reach the open adit. As the area around there seems to have been fairly flat, I am beginning to thing that there may have been yet another adit in that area, possibly buried by the 1962 landslide.

Beyond the upper closed adit there may be more too. Certainly there was open-cast working of the MU along there. The problem is that there are now too many trees to see very much.

I will hopefully be up there in a few weeks, with a better GPS that may work under trees and near cliffs, so we may be able to add some more precise positions. But if you can do that, please go ahead.

Meanwhile I will try to upload some photos, which should be on Craigend Lime Works, not Murrayshall.

Alan

Alan

The other entrance I know is nearer Norththird, and is a bit of a ramble to get to because the path runs out. It is years since I was last up there, so I have no idea whether or not it is still accessible. Last time I was there there was a wire fence across the entrance, but I think that was likely to keep animals out.
I know the lower one and the one which is now fenced off. The lower one has always been inaccessible as I remember it.
Some of the better limekilns are getting into a bit of a state now too, more's the pity. The whole area is a bit of a magnet for kids looking for somewhere to drink, so it is littered with broken glass etc.
Hope you manage along with equipment to get exact co-ordinates, I'm a bit of a luddite where that kind of stuff is concerned. 😞

Tom

Tom,

Thanks for that info. I will definitely need to have a look next time I am in the area.

I have put the photos I have of the known adits on the Craigend lime page. Sadly there is far too much vegetation for them to be very useful. Maybe I should try again in winter, when the vegetation is less intrusive.

The rocks over the upper adit were grey and weathered in the 1960s, whereas the QD in the rockfall at the top of the slope just before the middle adit was still fresh and blue. It goes reddish-brown (iron oxide) in between. So that, I think, puts my upper adit at about 1920 or earlier, like the lower adit.

So there is one more, at least, which you have seen. Truly fascinating, and well worth close scrutiny.

Alan

I used to live at NS793911, went to school at NS794909,

Hello near neighbour. 😉
I was brought up around NS791912, and went to NS794909 Primary School.
Amazing how many of us messed around up in those woods and never thought to mention to parents what we were playing in. They'd have had a fit.

So you were just round the corner then. I think my grid ref was a bit off, it should have been 793910, just south of Cultenhove Road. 30 Barnsdale Road to be precise.

I was at school there from 1955 to 1961, and Stirling High from 1961 to 1968.

Its a small world!

As to parents, mine were more responsible than most, but they knew what I was doing. My father had trained me to be careful.

I still have not had a chance to investigate the Gillies Hill adit, and Murrayshall properly. Too busy in London.....

Alan