Roy Morton
7 years ago
Everything you ever wanted to know about Lithium Ion batteries (but were too afraid to ask)

A very good tech article that informs and dissolves a few myths

https://www.nature.com/articles/srep30248 
"You Chinese think of everything!"
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simonrl
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7 years ago
I knew LiIon was dangerous; I started reading that article and my brain melted :lol:
my orders are to sit here and watch the world go by
Boy Engineer
7 years ago
If you connected one of the "voltage of less than 0v" cells to a lamp, would it give out darkness? Or capture it? We didn't cover this sort of thing in chemistry in the 70s.
TwllMawr
7 years ago
"Boy Engineer" wrote:

If you connected one of the "voltage of less than 0v" cells to a lamp, would it give out darkness? Or capture it? We didn't cover this sort of thing in chemistry in the 70s.



So much ;D;D;D... I went looking for the quote.
Roy Morton
7 years ago
Yup. A tad heavy going in places :lol: but with the right personal ignorance filter switched on the sensible bits shine through the geekological bits.
I'm still in recovery............
"You Chinese think of everything!"
"But I''m not Chinese!"
"Then you must have forgotten something!"
John Lawson
7 years ago
Thanks for the posting to the article!
The results confirm my worst fears, do not let a Lithium ion cell discharge to nothing!
Or else the consequences, might be illuminating!
royfellows
7 years ago
In reality there is little risk as even using unprotected cells in a torch, the light will go out before the cells become over discharged. The minimum cell voltage on most cells is about 2.5V and at that voltage a glow worm will produce more light. Of course, if the torch is left on regardless the LED or LEDs will continue to draw a diminishing current as will any closed circuit however I would expect a user to remove them for charging.

Regardless of all this common sense dictates the use of protected cells, which all retail cells are. Unprotected are OEM type intended to equipment manufacturers who use their own protection circuitry.
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Morlock
7 years ago
One question, presumably all 18650 cells self discharge to zero voltage over time?

lozz
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7 years ago
"a cell voltage lower than 0V can occur"

Nope.

Lozz.
Andy Mears
7 years ago
Presumably the "below 0v" refers to cells in series, when one cell becomes discharged before the others, and becomes reverse charged as a result. Wouldn't fancy trying to sort suitable protection for the 3,000 cells in series - parallel combination pulling a few hundred amps being used on electric cars.
royfellows
7 years ago
"Lithium-ion batteries connected in series are prone to be overdischarged."

Are they now.
I wonder who funded this study. Exon?
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Morlock
7 years ago
"royfellows" wrote:

"Lithium-ion batteries connected in series are prone to be overdischarged."

Are they now.
I wonder who funded this study. Exon?



I'm sure it must have been "peer reviewed"!:lol:
royfellows
7 years ago
Look at the authorship.

Conditions can be created in a lab that would not happen in practice and the findings of such be used to fuel $cares.


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Roy Morton
7 years ago
"royfellows" wrote:

Look at the authorship.

Conditions can be created in a lab that would not happen in practice and the findings of such be used to fuel $cares.



I have to agree there Roy. There are a few lines here and there that don't quite gel with what I've experienced in practice, and as you say, lab conditions are notorious for producing results that are atypical, or just completely potty. It seems because a result was arrived at, then it's probably true so write it up. 😠
"You Chinese think of everything!"
"But I''m not Chinese!"
"Then you must have forgotten something!"
royfellows
7 years ago
I think a few words of explanation will be helpful as well.

1/ Where a cell degrades and falls to zero volts or less.

Less than zero relates to a condition whereby the cell becomes a closed circuit in its own right. A battery of any type will have anode and cathode, this condition is permanent, they cannot become interposed. The anode will always be the anode, cathode will always be the cathode.

2/ Short circuits.
There is no such thing as an absolute short circuit as every current carrying conductor will have a resistance value. Even the spanner dropped across the terminals of a lead acid car battery by a careless mechanic is not an 'absolute short' regardless of the spectacular effect, it will have a resistance value.
A cell that becomes a closed circuit of whatever R value will conduct or draw current from other cells.

As said, a cell that becomes a closed circuit, (in its own right not as part of a series array, I am trying to explain this in simple terms) will draw or conduct current from the other cells which will be a product of its resistance and the voltage being applied as governed by Ohms Law, and the the energy consumed will be converted to heat. Every conductor has a resistance value and converts energy to heat. The lower its resistance once it becomes a 'closed circuit' the more current will pass and the more heat be generated. You can see where this is going.

The paper is in effect an attempt at a hatchet job on electric cars which it explicitly references. My Exon joke may well be a true word spoken in jest. The power banks of electric vehicles are electronically managed and monitored with adequate safety considerations. Manufacturers of cells such as Tesla and Sanyo Panasonic maintain stringent quality controls.


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royfellows
7 years ago
Thinking about what I have written, I could have said "a conductor in its own right", except all of these attempts at simplification are actually wrong. The only scientifically correct way to describe the condition is at it is written in the paper.

Any battery incorporated into a closed circuit even if one simply connects a bulb across it will become a conductor. But I think I may have helped people to understand what they are describing.
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lozz
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7 years ago
A cells voltage or the voltage from any other voltage source cannot fall below 0 volts, only it's sign can change from a given reference point.

Lozz.
royfellows
7 years ago
I think that Morlock hit the nail on the head, even if it was jest. The paper needs peer review.
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ChrisJC
7 years ago
"lozz" wrote:

A cells voltage or the voltage from any other voltage source cannot fall below 0 volts, only it's sign can change from a given reference point.

Lozz.



I think you are wandering into philosophy. It is conventional circuit theory to be able to have positive or negative voltages with respect to a reference. A cell is no exception.

Usually the negative terminal (cathode) would be the reference, so you get a positive result when measuring the potential at the positive terminal (anode). but under the conditions described above, the anode is negative with respect to the cathode.

Chris.
lozz
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7 years ago
"ChrisJC" wrote:

"lozz" wrote:

A cells voltage or the voltage from any other voltage source cannot fall below 0 volts, only it's sign can change from a given reference point.

Lozz.



It is conventional circuit theory to be able to have positive or negative voltages with respect to a reference. A cell is no exception.

Chris.



Which is what I implied...A basic electrical fact, no philosophy involved on my part.

A voltage cannot be less than 0 volts, in fact it can't be 0 volts either.

Lozz.

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