why some people, myself included, want nothing to do with clubs?

Whilst not wanting anything to do with them you're presumably happy to visit mines they've opened up and/or maintain?

As much as an argumentative ****** as he is ::) Jagman <----- :tongue: :tongue: :tongue: is probably right in that accidents are just as likely to happen to those in a club as those not. It would be interesting to see “the statistics” (I expect they don’t exist).

The British Cave Rescue Council has had a go at producing some statistics;

http://www.caverescue.org.uk/IREPPDF/ANAL8998.pdf 

though as the author admits, as yet there is probably too little information to draw too many meaningful conclusions. Interesting reading nonetheless.

That is very interesting indeed Rik - Thanks 😉

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I think you just do well to keep your options open

I'm in a club, I go on a couple of their trips each year.
I go on many Aditnow trips, but not all of them.
Know a few people who I go out with maybe once or twice a year.
Know a few people who I go out with maybe every couple of months.
Know one or two who I go out with pretty much every week.

Variety is the spice of life and all that, don't pigeon-hole yourself as a club-man or anything else.

@RJV -
Presuming they are happy for me to visit, yes. I'm also quite happy to Contribute financially towards this. It's when things are gated, and *reasonable* access requests are not permitted, I have a problem. Politics usually at the root of this.

I don't have a problem with the idea of a club, it's the politics that keeps me firmly away. Remove it and I have no problems whatsoever with clubs.

@RikJ -
I am not clicking on any link with "anal" in the URL... 😉

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This is what clubs can do:

http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=12318.0;topicseen#msg159369 

I'd echo a previous poster's comment. It really doesn't bother me who does or does not join a club.

I also agree that being in a club means that you automatically won't have an accident. But I don't think anything was actually saying that was a hard and fast rule.

If it's a good club it should mean you're less likely to have an accident.

And the same is true if you explore with an experienced bunch of non-club mates.

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This is what clubs can do:

http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=12318.0;topicseen#msg159369 

I'm not sure what your point is. At no point have I said "clubs are bad", or anything similar... I just pointed out that I, and a lot of other people I know, want no part of the Politics that is present within a lot of the clubs, some more so than others. I appreciate clubs can do things that individuals can not. I however choose not to be a party to that as I find that I don't like a lot of the "side effects". If you choose to be a member of the club, that's great, and I hope you have a lot of good trips out with them.

It is, at the end of the day, about choice. We all make our own. I choose not to, and although I take the odd trip out with AN or other Forums, I mostly stick with 3 or 4 friends. I have no need to put up with politics in exchange for the other benefits a club can provide. This, however, does not mean that I am incompetent, uneducated or dangerous within a Mine exploration environment. On the contrary, I'm the one more likely to question things and triple check the rigging, watch the roof and tell people not to prod things.

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Peter,

Was a condition of the 25% grant by the CCW that the land be scheduled SSSI or was it already ?

Ian

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Listen - all I did was post a link! I wasn't "making a point" or supporting either camp, assuming there is a divide here. The only divide I can really detect is between those who think the club/no club thing is a big deal, and those (like me) who don't think it is.

If you like getting involved in the big scale stuff like running places like Snailbeach, securing cave entrances through purchase like SWCC, or dare I say it, opening the Reigate Caves like WCMS, then you join the groups that do it. If the things that float your boat don't require joining a group to get what you want, then don't! ::)

Not sure who you were responding to Peter .... I was asking an un-related question which I assumed you would know the answer to ?

Sorry if it upset you 😞

Ian

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Fair enough... Given the context, I obviously misinterpreted your post.

For what it's worth, I am with you it's of little consequence to me personally, as I said, live and let live. It's when people assume that if you're not in a club, you're incompetent, unskilled or otherwise unsafe that I get annoyed. I thought that I would articulate my thought processes so people can see why I choose not to join a club.

Listen - all I did was post a link! I wasn't "making a point" or supporting either camp, assuming there is a divide here. The only divide I can really detect is between those who think the club/no club thing is a big deal, and those (like me) who don't think it is.

If you like getting involved in the big scale stuff like running places like Snailbeach, securing cave entrances through purchase like SWCC, or dare I say it, opening the Reigate Caves like WCMS, then you join the groups that do it. If the things that float your boat don't require joining a group to get what you want, then don't! ::)

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I hadn't noticed your post, Ian - answer is I don't know, but I do know that large areas of the hillside in that area have been SSSI for many years.

Thanks Peter 😉

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As much as an argumentative ****** as he is ::) Jagman <----- :tongue: :tongue: :tongue: is probably right in that accidents are just as likely to happen to those in a club as those not. It would be interesting to see “the statistics” (I expect they don’t exist).

Indeed, I can be 🙂
However in this case it isn't my intention. My point is purely that club membership doesn't make you less likely to have an accident.
Genuinely not trying to start an argument about clubs in any way.

The main reason for joining a club nowadays is the accommodation, and the use of club equipment.

NewStuff's allusion to Bike clubs is spurious. There's very little similarity to the strictly enforced (by the 'patch' clubs) hierarchy in the bike world to the looser hierarchy of the caving/mine exploration scene, thats enforced by no-one.

The main reason for joining a club nowadays is the accommodation, and the use of club equipment.

That's exactly why I joined the BEC, I shy away from all the club polotics and infighting that goes on, I want to go underground not sit about discussing the size of the table or the colour of the walls in the commonroom etc!

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Not sure how long this discussion is going to run but I want to draw attention to some underground incidents I am aware of.
In the mid 50's myself and no doubt lots of others would explore the open West Mine at Alderley Edge we did not have much experience and only battery torches to light our way.
Only later in life having read Chris Carlon's book on the Alderley Edge Mines did. I realise how stupid this was.He claims that these mines have claimed more fatalities than any other disused mine.It was easy to go in in and easy to get lost.
Access I understand is now in the hands of a club and presumably accidents are now reduced.
I would also like to refer two accidents I know of in Smallcleugh Mine, which is also easily accessed in the 70's there was a call for the mine to be filled in following a fatality . This was due to in adequate equipment in fact the guy who lost his life did not have a lamp.
Another incident involved an explorer falling off an electron in the Hydraulic shaft in Elliots.He was not life lined!
Underground explorers cannot be too careful out there is the great British public who would happily fill in all disused mines with re-inforced concrete.As happened at the West mine.
Early efforts at blocking it had failed but once a head of steam had got up the public were determined it must be sealed.

So, because some idiots have no idea of safety, technique, or common sense, I must be in a club, or I can't explore? I risk having places sealed or access otherwise removed?

That seems to be the subtext to your post.

I'll reiterate what I have said earlier in this thread. Should I ever need rescuing, it'll be down to sheer bad luck, and not lack of knowledge, inadequate kit, or stupidity. I would happily apply this to my regular, non-club-affiliated, exploring mates.

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So, because some idiots have no idea of safety, technique, or common sense, I must be in a club, or I can't explore? I risk having places sealed or access otherwise removed?

That seems to be the subtext to your post.

I'll reiterate what I have said earlier in this thread. Should I ever need rescuing, it'll be down to sheer bad luck, and not lack of knowledge, inadequate kit, or stupidity. I would happily apply this to my regular, non-club-affiliated, exploring mates.

I didn't read it like that at all.

I think he was just pointing out that the result of fatal and non-fatal accidents can be public clamouring to have places sealed up.

Which is bad for all of us.

****** all to do with whether the person at the centre of the accident was a club member or not.

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