From the Beeb

Telford man rescued from old mine near Llyn Geirionnydd

A 54-year-old man was rescued after plunging into water when he went to investigate the shaft of an old lead mine in Snowdonia on Monday night.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-14455865 

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Interesting. Didn't Ogwen retrieve someone from Bryn Cenhadon or similar a few years ago. Quite easy of access to the casual walker.

Robin

Hmm, reading Oggie's own web page:

http://www.ogwen-rescue.org.uk/incidents/incidents.php 

It turns out he was actually underground. Makes it sounds a bit more serious than the BBC article said.

I don't think NWCRO got to hear about this?

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I think I can see why Ogwen MR got called to this...

From their incident list:

8 Aug 2011 17:30
to
8 Aug 2011 19:15

Geirionydd

1 person: Mine exploration

18 members attended

A man was exploring the old mines near to Llyn Geirionydd when an old wooden floor collapsed and he fell down a 5m shaft in to waist high water. He was unable to climb back out so his friend called for help. The team sent a hasty party to the location and 22 squadron flew in as support. Luckily, the casualty managed to climb out using a rope lowered down to him and had only suffered abrasions

6 Jun 2008 16:15
to
6 Jun 2008 18:30

Below Llyn Geirionydd

1 person: Gorge walking

This 10-year-old girl was with a school group, staying at a local centre, who were exploring the gorge below Llyn Geirionydd. At some point she entered a horizontal mine shaft and wandered into the darkness. She did not see the vertical shaft in the floor until she fell approximately 8m into it. The group organisers decided it would be best to seek expert help in case she was injured, so sent one leader to a phonebox to summon help. This is one of the few places in this area with no mobile phone signal. The Team and Helimed attended the scene and worked together to extract the girl, on a spinal stretcher, and then she was flown to Ysbyty Gwynedd for a check up.

9 Sep 2003
to
9 Sep 2003

Ochre Mines. Geirionydd

1 person: Caving

Walked into adit and fell 6m down shaft dislocating shoulder..

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As in most areas
The rescue unit called out will be the one that the switchboard or police control are most familiar with.
In North Wales this will be the Mountain Rescue teams.
In Cornwall & Devon it is usual for Fire & Rescue to attend with Cave / Mine teams being ignored.
In South Wales the Cave rescue teams are "First shout" because police know them well.
This problem does not seem to get any better.

Hmm, reading Oggie's own web page:

http://www.ogwen-rescue.org.uk/incidents/incidents.php 

It turns out he was actually underground. Makes it sounds a bit more serious than the BBC article said.

I don't think NWCRO got to hear about this?

Be interesting to know who this person was another good arguement for being in a club properly equipped and experienced

Mike

Mike
Apparently a Telford chap
http://www.shropshirestar.com/news/2011/08/09/snowdonia-mine-fall-victim-from-telford-rescued/ 
Send him a post card about the club :flowers:

Hmm, reading Oggie's own web page:

http://www.ogwen-rescue.org.uk/incidents/incidents.php 

It turns out he was actually underground. Makes it sounds a bit more serious than the BBC article said.

I don't think NWCRO got to hear about this?

Be interesting to know who this person was another good arguement for being in a club properly equipped and experienced

Mike

What possible difference would being in a club make?

Hmm, reading Oggie's own web page:

http://www.ogwen-rescue.org.uk/incidents/incidents.php 

It turns out he was actually underground. Makes it sounds a bit more serious than the BBC article said.

I don't think NWCRO got to hear about this?

Be interesting to know who this person was another good arguement for being in a club properly equipped and experienced

Mike

What possible difference would being in a club make?

There are a number of distinct advantages to belonging to a club. Membership of a bona fide mining or caving group gives the novice explorerer access to the experience of more seasoned explorers and allows the novice to learn techniques in a correct andf safe manner.

Within most established clubs an informal mentoring system operates; a more senior member takes a new member under his/her wing and shows him the ropes (often literaly).

it was not me :)
:thumbsup:

Hmm, reading Oggie's own web page:

http://www.ogwen-rescue.org.uk/incidents/incidents.php 

It turns out he was actually underground. Makes it sounds a bit more serious than the BBC article said.

I don't think NWCRO got to hear about this?

Be interesting to know who this person was another good arguement for being in a club properly equipped and experienced

Mike

For all you know this chap might have been a member of a club, though that would not stop him falling through a false floor, he may just have been having a quick look into some where whilst passing, could happen to any one of us whilst exploring, thank heavens he was OK.

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There are a number of distinct advantages to belonging to a club. Membership of a bona fide mining or caving group gives the novice explorerer access to the experience of more seasoned explorers and allows the novice to learn techniques in a correct andf safe manner.

Within most established clubs an informal mentoring system operates; a more senior member takes a new member under his/her wing and shows him the ropes (often literaly).

Some clubs might do that but I'm fairly certain most don't.

In reality being a member of a club likely means that every once in a while you get to inflict your dodgy rigging and questionable judgment on people who you don't know very rather than just upon your usual crowd.

Ah the club debate :)

Some folk like clubs, some don't. Live and let live.

Join a good club and you'll get a lot out of it, if it's what you like.

For sure if matey boy joined a club, and went along on a few meets and learnt a bit off other members then he might have known to watch out for false floors.

But then again he could have gone off with a bunch of non-club mates, learnt from them (as a lot of us did) and known what to watch out for.

Or he could have read up - online or in books - on the dangers.

And in any of those ways he could, probably, have avoided falling down an 'ole...

Or of course he could have joined a club, nodded intently when people told him about false floors, how they can look solid, and to be especially careful in water, and headed off solo and fallen through one.

Ditto he could have come along on a trip with this or any other web site, or just with a group of mates, ignored everything said, then gone off solo and gone for a plunge.

Or he could have extensively explored (for example) slate mines or caves (this is not an anti-cave or caver comment, not my style, it's merely an observation that some dangers are inherent to the specific underground environment) where this isn't necessarily a danger and headed off into a metal mine and become a statistic.

But simply being in a club doesn't mean this accident wouldn't have happened...

And not being in a club doesn't make anybody a statistic waiting to happen.

All that said, it's entirely possible he might read this, so hopefully nobody will end up finger pointing.

I don't think any of us is beyond having an accident. At the point I start thinking I am I hope one of my exploring mates (club members or otherwise) will give me a kicking and tell me to stop being a liability.

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Simon is, of course, quite right.

There is more; In general terms a little knowledge can be dangerous. It could, for instance, instil confidence in oneself in favour of caution.

Likewise, experience without knowledge can be just as dangerous.

Knowledge itself is not the only piece of the jigsaw, you also need intelligence (to interpret the knowledge), experience (the practical application of knowledge and intelligence) and, of course, wisdom (the culmination of knowledge, intelligence and experience).

Our individual practical capabilities are based on all of the above. Knowledge can be gained from being within a club or from being with our like-minded friends or from literature. Experience is gained from our actions but our individual intelligence (and therefore wisdom) is diverse amongst us.

I spend half my underground life with a club and half without the club being involved and I would like to think that I have the best of both worlds. I have a valuable resource to call upon when my own knowledge is lacking and the opportunity to adventure to places I could not practically do without a party of experienced people and also the opportunity to explore wherever I will whenever I want.

I also don’t think there needs to be a division.

I am the first person to “ask” when I am unsure about something even when I feel I might be mocked and laughed at for not already knowing the answer – I just don’t think it pays to “guess” or take a risk through ignorance. After all, the beginning of wisdom is “I do not know ....”

In that philosophy, I would hope we are all the same ::)

Ian

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Ah the club debate :)

Some folk like clubs, some don't. Live and let live.

It doesn't matter to me who joins a club or who doesn't.

I'm simply disputing the implication that accidents are less likely to happen to those who are part of a "bona fide" club.

As in most areas
The rescue unit called out will be the one that the switchboard or police control are most familiar with.
In North Wales this will be the Mountain Rescue teams.
In Cornwall & Devon it is usual for Fire & Rescue to attend with Cave / Mine teams being ignored.
In South Wales the Cave rescue teams are "First shout" because police know them well.
This problem does not seem to get any better.

Cornwall has changed and Fire & Rescue along with CSAR coming along also

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It doesn't matter to me who joins a club or who doesn't.

I'm simply disputing the implication that accidents are less likely to happen to those who are part of a "bona fide" club.

True Sir, take me for instance (noooo don't do that!!)

I recently had a fall in a natural 'ole, I'm a club member (BEC), I'm aware of the dangers in both natural and man-made 'oles.

It was my mates (having been alerted by the missus (ok, first of all she had to get through to the right control room, as she lives on Alcatraz and not in Mendipshire) that came and got me out of the poopeye!!

Accidents WILL 'appen and when they do, be FOOKING glad that there are those who are willing to drop everything, no matter what the time of day to come and get you, your buddies or just straight Joe Public out of the poopeye, BUY an A/N calender or 2, put your loose change in the MRO (or whatever) collection box in the boozer, AND hope that it ain't your turn to be hauled owt. Christ knows I've paid folk back in BEER for helping me, and, hopefully YOU would do the same if I had to come and save your a$$!!

We're all in it together club members or out and out renagades, when the $hite hits the fan WE all pull together for the common good and the santctity of life! :thumbup:

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Lots of interesting points have been made in this discussion,and I personally have valued the time I have spent with many Club members over nearly fifty years underground.
I cannot see how you can learn to understand how to explore mines carefully and safely unless it is shown to you by others with lots of experience.
Once you have acquired these then of course you are not at a great risk in mine exploration.
If Iam involved in taking novices underground I always place the uneperienced person between myself and another experienced person.Usually I try to bring up the rear just to keep a very close eye on that individual. I assumed that this was standard practice in all clubs,but is it?

As someone who is pretty new to the scene, and still has his initial impressions clear in his head, can I offer a viewpoint as to why some people, myself included, want nothing to do with clubs?

Politics.

The petty bickering, one-upmanship and other assorted stupidity. It's one of the first things I noticed... "this is *our* mine", you need *our* permission to go in here, and *we* must guide you around". More so when members of Club A are speaking to Club B. It's minimal on this particular forum (which is a testament to both the posters and the moderator's), but talking to others, and in other parts of the web, it's far more noticeable.

I have nothing to do with this in the Bike world (which has a lot of parallels with the regard to politics), and I'll have nothing to do with it here. I suspect an awful lot of others feel the same. If you want to join a club, fine, have at it, but to come out with Gems such as "I cannot see how you can learn to understand how to explore mines carefully and safely unless it is shown to you by others with lots of experience" is just intentionally putting others not in clubs down. Live and let live.

I'll wager that should I ever need to be rescued, it'll be down to sheer bad luck, and not a lack of learning, bad judgement or declining to be a part of the local club, and you may feel free to hold me to that. What I have learned so far has been mostly down to friends showing me, and I booked myself on the very good course organised by Rockchick. At no point have I seen an overriding need reason to convince me that, for me, joining a Club is a good idea.

I'm not having a go at anyone, but I find the somewhat blinkered viewpoint rather perplexing.

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I think there is a difference between mine-exploring and caving too. Just today (10th Aug) a group of 11 cavers were trapped in a cave in Yorkshire (presumably a club?) due to rising water levels – something that is perhaps much less likely in a mine?

A few days ago a man fell into a mine shaft in a lead mine in North Wales (this thread of course) and he was alone (in the hole) and not therefore “with” a club (I don’t know if he was a member or not).

I recently saw a website of a group of “non-club” people who were advertising underground adventures and they had many pictures of themselves underground with no lids (perhaps some of those people are even on this forum?) – We can each draw our own conclusions to that ....

As much as an argumentative ****** as he is ::) Jagman <----- :tongue: :tongue: :tongue: is probably right in that accidents are just as likely to happen to those in a club as those not. It would be interesting to see “the statistics” (I expect they don’t exist).

John, I think you are correct that most (if not all) clubs will sandwich novice cavers/explorers between experienced ones and will help the novices gain an understanding, knowledge and experience of the underground environment that they are in. I expect that this also happens with some groups of non-club explorers.

Newstuff, I understand where you are coming from with politics especially with gating entrances and inter club rivalry. I have listened to arguments from clubs who have gated entrances that they “need” to be gated to preserve and protect what lies within and I have been largely unpersuaded. I have had dealings with one club whose constitution actually met the dictionary definition of fascism (totalitarian) and such was their “power” that an open debate on a public forum was removed at their request. So I do understand powerplay, politics and (of course) your concern and I share it even though I am in a club.

I think the largest element is the individual(s) concerned at the time of the accident – in the case of the cavers in Yorkshire, did they make a bad judgement call (weather) or were they genuinely caught out by an unforeseeable event? The man who fell down the mine – was he lacking knowledge or would it have happened to an experienced explorer in any event ?

Hmmmmmm..... :blink:

Ian


PS... noted the word filter ... bah :confused: The word was "b u g g e r" :angel:

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