Just seen a chap on Countryfile advocating blocking up Magpie Sough to restore the flow in the surface river - anyone know how seriously this is being looked at?

Just seen a chap on Countryfile advocating blocking up Magpie Sough to restore the flow in the surface river - anyone know how seriously this is being looked at?

I'm not sure he was advocating it rather pointing out that this would be the only way of restoring the surface river. I might be wrong but I got the impression that he wasn't enthralled with the idea.

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Just seen a chap on Countryfile advocating blocking up Magpie Sough to restore the flow in the surface river - anyone know how seriously this is being looked at?

I'm not he was advocating it rather pointing out that this would be the only way of restoring the surface river. I might be wrong but I got the impression that he wasn't enthralled with the idea.

Thats good, neither was I!

It will be Lathkilldale Sough, Magpie Sough is miles away and does not dry up to the river Wye.

I took a pic of this notice In Nov 2009 which explains how Natural England were measuring the upstream and downstream flows in Lathkilldale.

🔗Personal-Album-176-Image-69268[linkphoto]Personal-Album-176-Image-69268[/linkphoto][/link]

I have no idea how seriously they are looking at the option of 'blocking' up Lathkilldale Sough - Not sure how they would stop the water going underground.

They are also a number of 'dry valleys' and the like in the area, and the River Lathkill itself issues from a cave

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No, it is Magpie sough that John Gunn is suggesting should be blocked to improve the flow in the Lathkill.

A few observations:
1) there are several rivers that dry up in the summer, such as the Hamps/Manifold, or going further north, the Skirfare and upper Wharfe. However, it seems that the Lathkill is a special case and cannot be allowed to go underground.
2) Magpie Sough was blocked from the early 1960s to the mid 1970s. What difference did this make to water levels in the Lathkill? Not much according to the PDMHS old hands who were exploring the mines in the dale back then.
3) Judging by the ore measurements I've seen from the 18th century, there is a massive stope near or directly under the river bed on the Lathkill vein, which will act as a _very_ large sinkhole.

To, finish, a simple statement: Over my dead body!

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Erm/Eh!!! :confused:


Either I'm being really really thick here but how the fook is altering the drainage paths along Magpie going to affect the flow in the River Lathkill?

As far as I'm aware there are no direct mining connections between Magpie Sough and Lathkill Dale; hence the only way Magpie Sough to affect the River Lathkill is by rising the natural ground water levels under the ridge around Sheldon and Magpie Mine - But I would assume that the groundwater should and would continue to drain from Magpie to the River Wye - Blocking up Magpie Sough would most likely cause it to spring out or come out in to Deep Dale or something else going to the Wye north of Sheldon.

I'm just a simple minewater hydrogeologist so I must be missing something out here which would mean it would work. Either that or I think someone is getting their soughs mixed up

Regarding the river draining in to the workings in Lathkill, that was my understanding of it - i.e. going in to old workings under the river and the drainage sough.

Wouldn't it be better to canalise the short section over the old workings? - Kind of like what they tried to do below County Adit? - But then again turning a river in to a canal is a wicked sin

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Twas definitely Magpie sough they mentioned blocking on TV :confused:

No doubt someone will correct this, but didn't Magpie Sough block all by itself a few years back and burst out at Shack Wood?

Or summat.... ::)

Ever since Magpie Sough was reopened in 1974 there has been a blame culture attached to it for the problems of the Lathkill.
I would be open to reasoned scientific facts and wouldn't be too surprised to learn that a rise in the Magpie area water table could affect the Lathkill. After all, the Lathkill is about the same distance away as the Wye but opposite direction?
However, now that the Magpie Sough exists and water drains to the Wye since the 1880's apart from a small blip between collapse and reopening, has the problem been around for 100 years? Or was it only invented in 1974 as a scapegoat for not doing repairs?
From memory, before Magpie Sough was driven, the water levels in the mine were up around the 360 foot level. The sough takes it down to the 590 foot level.
Having explored Lathkill Dale and droughts permitting, the Lathkill Sough quite a lot in the last 40 years, I would dismiss the Magpie Sough blocking thing as a bluster by folk who want a silver bullet for a much bigger and more expensive problem.
As has been said earlier, the ground under the river Lathkill is hollow and in the summer the river simply moves below ground. Lathkill Sough runs directly under the valley for a lot of it's way. Also, don't forget that the area has caves too.
Previously the bed of the river was kept puddled with clay, effectively making it a canal. That costs money and ongoing maintenance.

Prior to the mid to late 19th century, I suspect it was just accepted that the river disappeared underground. It seems to have become an issue as large-scale mining ceased and sporting use of the valley became more popular. The Strathmore estate certainly did some work at the end of the 19th century in puddling the river bed, and it's possible the miners may have done this too previously. Since then, I doubt any maintenance has been done, so of course the water is leaking back into the vein.

We've also had two exceptionally dry springs in a row, with low rainfall persisting well into the autumn so it's hardly surprising that the river's much drier than usual this summer. I'm deeply concerned that this is being used to justify attempts to get the sough blocked, which I feel is a case of doing something so as to be seen to be doing something, rather than trying to do something effective.

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A little bed-time reading here, with one or two pertinent bits. Am still trying to find when the report mentioned in the programme will be available (funded by Natural England).

http://eprints.hud.ac.uk/2008/1/vanessabanksfinalthesis.pdf 

Nice find.
It's the PhD behind the paper in qjegh from May 2009 which I've also got to have a read through

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Well remembered B. Eng.
That says it all really.

We had better be getting the concrete mixed ready for the plug...........

As already said, the river was canalised - puddled clay and, if you look around the large waterwheel site, lined with stone - like the roof of a culvert.
There is a photograph of a fishing party taken (I think near Bateman's House?), after the driving of Magpie Sough and so also into the time when water was being pumped from even deeper.
There is another photograph by Keene (1860's -) which shows the Aqueduct pillars and the river as it is now - man made and complete with the supports for temporary footbridges.
The thesis states that there is a lack of documentation regarding what happened to water levels while Magpie Sough was blocked and before it re-opened itself via the sough tail shaft. I recall that Mandale Sough was dry for the first time (in my memory) in 1976, the year of a serious drought.
I have scimmed through the document and have not seen mention of the mines and mine drainage on the north side of the valley, western end. Also, with this in mind, there has been a shift in drainage at that end of the valley - Critchlow Cave was never said to flood (1960's Caves of Derbyshire) but in more recent years it has dramatically. The drainage at that end of the valley is really interesting and does not follow what would be assumed to be a logical sequence.
I lean towards the search for a "silver bullet" theory above and the natural cycles/climate change/lack of maintenance of structures approach to explaining what is happening.

It is interesting to read 'Thrutch's' comments re. the report. We had a lecture by a chap who had done an Msc at Huddersfield University on Coal Mining. He told us there was little mining round Huddersfield and he was stud on mine workings. Huddersfield is ridled with them.
The uni was a Technical College when I went there for 10 years.
Huddersfield Lad born and bred.

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Natural England via Professor John Gunn’s extensive (at least 10 years) experiments are stating that water which would naturally run down the River Lathkill is flowing down the Wye via Magpie Sough. Lathkill Dale Sough is only responsible for removing perennial flow from the river bed through Palmaston Wood, where Batemans House is, but all of the water returns to the river via The Bubble Springs.

Once water enters Lathkill Dale, it is only lost to the river for a short time. Magpie Sough is taking water from the river completely. Wheeldon found it, Banks found it and Gunn found more recently so it cannot be denied. Estimates revolve around the figure of 52% of Q95.

Magpie is responsible for removing the Lathkills natural entitlement and the Lathkill and its inhabitants are in serious need of that water, from the native crayfish to the kingfishers; from the trout to otters. For those who visit the cave occasionally and spend a couple of hours or so exploring, you might like to consider the River being without the water all of the time, with its associated problems relating to lack of flow.

To answer an earlier question, the fishery was operating when a famous angler called Isaak Walton recorded catching red trout in the Lathkill back in 1670. Did the photo you mentioned show a couple of men sat bolt upright with tea, some fish laid out in front and the fishing family more relaxed? The bailiff on the right (Bartram) is buried at Over Haddon.

Any possible project to return the Lathkills rightful entitlement of water could only take place before water starts to fall to the Wye, directing it back to its home in the Lathkill. The rest of the sough would be free to explore as it is now, just with less water, just like Hill Carr.

Thanks for listening.

A suggestion.
http://www.petersenproducts.com/case_study/Large_Mine_Flooding_Remediation.aspx 
Stick one of these somewhere near the top end of Magpie Sough, or at the Boil Up to see if the theory is correct. If it is, a proper plug could be constructed. If it doesn't make much difference, all that would be needed would be a spike on the end of a long set of drain rods, and a letter of apology for the residents of Ashford for any inconvenience that might be caused, albeit temporarily. Most stuff would dry out.

Thrutch- Critchlow Cave was never said to flood (1960's Caves of Derbyshire) but in more recent years it has dramatically.


CC is known to discharge every 12 years or so and has done for living memory. I've caught it myself a couple of times, once on fiim during the October 2000 flood that did for Hill Carr- I'll look it out.

Love it! Although, thinking about it, a blow-up plug would hold back much less head at the mine, rather than at the tail. The Matlock Mercury ran a similar story concerning Hill Carr, and the responsibility of the land owner to unblock it slowly, or be responsible for millions of gallons of flood water drenching Matlock if it were to go all at once.

The fishing party photograph is the one mentioned by unclej and was taken after Magpie Sough was first opened. Was it Isaac Walton who descrbed "the clearest waters in -- " or a later visitor. No saying just where on the Lathkill Isaac fished but he would not have seen the Bubble Springs to upstream of Carters Mill, artificial section, as it is now. When did Carters Mill itself cease to function?
The flooding of Critchlow Cave came as a surprise to Cavers who had known it since the 1960's and so I am not sure about "living memory" or why the 12 year cycle was not known about when Caves of Derbyshire was published. Could someone step in with information on the mines to the north of the dale - and the extent of past pumping/collapse/flooding. It still appears that the evidence re. Magpie Sough is inconclusive. Anyone have some heights/depth/gradient figures, geological and other information to help with this - a precis to help us understand what is happening.
I know that the Lathkill has appeared to be short of water for some time, even from the mid-seventies (I recall there being much more before then and a good flow from Mandale sough) but the re-opening of magpie Sough does not fit well, with some vital information missing. What about the flow in the Lathkill in the 1960's before the sough tail collapsed, when the sough was open for it's entire length?
There is a large sink in the river bed (puddling gone?) not far upstream of the gate below Over Haddon, below the first water fall. I suppose the water drops into Lathkill Dale Sough.
Lathkill Dale gets very wet indeed sometimes - what happens to Magpie Sough when the water is coming up the mine shafts near Bateman's House?
Lots of questions!