I’ve been browsing through the story of Cornish miners movements throughout the UK in the 18th and 19th century and in the account it mentioned that the Cornish were brought in to work the ailing Magpie mine at Sheldon in 1846. To put it mildly I’m not exactly au fait with the history of the latter but I got to wondering why they required Cornish miners given the local expertise re. lead mining.

The ref. given supporting the statement was “The Mines of Mendip” by J. W Gough p. 188. I checked this out (not read the whole book yet) and frankly I don’t see the connection. I know there are a number of members here with a great deal of knowledge in this area so if someone could put a little piece of meat on this particular bone I would be grateful.

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John Taylor may have had something to do with it?

John Taylor may have had something to do with it?

I think you may have hit the nail on the head there. In the mid 19th century cornish miners had vastly improved lead mining techniques in Wales and Derbyshire. John Taylor took Cornish mine captains and skilled miners to several Pennine mining fields to facilitate the opening of formerly unproductive lead mines.

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Magpie Mine is well documented and written about - well it would be, being the best preserved partly ruined lead mine engine house left in Derbyshire! Can I suggest the following articles and website to anyone interested in reading further about the long history of the mine also the murder of three miners in the Red Soil Vein at Magpie mine in 1833.

There is an excellent small book describing the life story of John Taylor called "John Taylor - mining entrepreneur and engineer 1779-1863" written by R. Burt, and published by Moorland Publishing Company in 1977 - which on page 55 "III Derbyshire" mentions that:-

"At the same time as John and his sons were expanding their Central Wales interest, they also moved into the ancient lead-mining area of the Derbyshire Peak. Although now long-past its most productive period, there were still good prospects of large returns in the area and extensive interests were acquired in the Longstone Edge, Hubberdale, Magpie and Alport mines [Ref. No. 11 'Proceedings of the Royal Society' 13 - 1864]. Of these, the Alport mines were undoubtedly the largest and most important. A cost-book company, known as the Alport Mining Company, was launched at the beginning of 1839, under the direction of John Taylor and his eldest son........"

The section on Derbyshire is interesting reading, apparently the Alport Company was wound up in 1852, extract from page 61 as follows:

"The Alport venture had been a bold and promising project defeated by problems beyond the capacity of contemporary technology. It was one of the still few major failures of John Taylor's now lengthy career. It bears some similarities to the disapppointment experienced at the Real [Real del Monte mine, Mexico] during the same years, but the overall scale of the financial losses was considerably less"

It would appear that John Taylor's Derbyshire venture was defeated by a combination of water problems both by inadequate drainage of the mines in the Alport area by the existing "soughs" (drainage levels) the largest of which was the Hillcarr sough, and lack of surface water in the local rivers for use in his Alport engines; the severe fall in the price of lead; high operating costs and hugh technical problems. Extract from page 59 as follows:-

"The following account, to September 1849, produced little relief. A total loss of £627 4s 11d was made over the year and it had been necessary to make a call on shares of £720, the first for several years, to cover costs and maintain a small balance in hand. An unusually long summer drought, which had already lasted three months and was still continuing when John presented his annual report, had caused a complete supension of working below Hillcarr Sough and had seriously reduced output. A rigourous economy programme was put into opertion but failed to compensate for the sharp drop in receipts which had been aggravated by a further fall in the price of lead ore. Taylor wrote alarmingly, 'The price of our lead ores throughout the year has averaged only about £9 per ton, which is a rate below that at which such mines as these can produce it advantangeously'."

Aside from John Taylor's involvement at Magpie mine, there are accounts of Magpie mine in other articles and a website:-

"Magpie Mine and It's Tragedy" by Nellie Kirkham published in Derbyshire Miscellancy, Vol.2, No.8, September, 1962 - The Bulletin of the Local History Section of Derbyshire Archaeological Society. - This details the three murders that took place at the Red Soil Vein at Magpie mine in 1833, and fills the whole of this publication.

"The Magpie Mine Engine House, Sheldon, Derbyshire" by V. S. Roche, Peak District Mines Historical Society Bulletin Vol.3, No. 6 pp381-384.

"Some Recent Surface and Underground Observations at Magpie Mine" by N. J. D. Butcher. P.D.M.H.S. Bulletin Vol.4, No. 6, December, 1971.

John Palmer's excellent WIRKSWORTH website on which are found two references to Magpie mine.

http://www.wirksworth.org.uk/REDSOIL.htm 
on this section John has copied an old book "Murders at Red Soil mine" that was printed shortly after the trial at Derby in 1833, which gives a detailed account of the three murders, the trial and sentencing of the miners. It is interesting reading.

(2)http://www.wirksworth.org.uk/X587.htm
on this section John has posted a brief description of the mine plus photographs.

I have scanned Nellie Kirkham's article on Magpie and will try and find out about copyright, and if I can will then post to the document part of the site.

For the story of the Alport mines, Derbyshire and John Taylor, another article to read is:-

"The Draining of the Alport Lead Mines" written by Nellie Kirkham,and published in the Newcomen Society Transactions, Volume 33.

Thanks for all of that info. sougher. Should cover everything very adequately. :thumbsup:

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I’ve been browsing through the story of Cornish miners movements throughout the UK in the 18th and 19th century

In your browsing did you find anything refering to Richard Niness involvment in the mines around Warslow Staffs?
I'm aware/have copies of the PDMHS etc stuff but would love to see somthing from the Cornish perspective.
To partly answer your question, the Cornish miners bought there expertise in working mines in an ordered and technologicaly advanced manner.
It was to little avail for the most part though, as we lacked one commodity that you had - large deposits of economicaly worked mineral!
Mind you, we did seem to attract resonable deposits of economicaly worked shareholders 😉

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Not so far but it's really only a preface to the Cornish overseas so doesn't go into too much detail. I'll probably be digging a bit deeper in the future (bit housebound at the moment) so if I come across anything will post it. The following is a short extract showing what I mean.

Philip Payton, The Cornish Overseas.

"In the mid-nineteenth century the Cornish were still in the Mendip Hills, in 1852 one Nicholas Ennor acquiring the rights of the Priddy Minery, the telltale Cornish-style engine houses and stacks in the locality evidence of a parallel Cornish technological impact. The Cornish were also prominent in the Derbyshire lead mines, where in the 1740s Cornish and Welsh miners were said to have introduced the art of 'buddling'(ore washing) to the Peak District, and where in 1846 the Cornish were brought in to work the ailing Magpie mine at Sheldon.
In the lead districts of Wales, too, the Cornish made an early and lasting impact. As early as 1731 the Cornish had been responsible for re-opening the Old Darren mine, near Aberystwyth, while Cornish captains had supervised the development in the late eighteenth century ofworkings at Rhandirmwyn on Lord Cawdor's land in Carmarthenshire. In 1813 the Halkyn mines in Denbighshire were under the management of a Cornishman, one Absolom Moore, and an upsurge of lead mining after the peace of 1815 led to a major influx of Cornish into North-east Wales. In 1826 the Pen-y-fron mine boasted Cornishmen in all its key positions, and in 1828 one Holywell company paid for John Rodda and his family to come from Cornwall to run the Brynford Hall mine. In the 1820s the Cornish were active in the Penrhyn-du mines in Caernarvonshire, and by the mid-nineteenth century they were busy in the Towy Valley east of Carmarthen and in the Llanidloes district of Montgomeryshire. In 1851 there were 343 Cornish and Devon born people in Cardiganshire's mining districts, and in 1871 the mid-Wales mining counties contained some 523 Cornish-born. But by then hundreds of other Cornish had found work in the coal mines of South Wales and the North of England, in the copper mines of Ireland, in the coal and iron mines of Scotland".

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It's Philip Payton, actually.

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Slip of the finger. Duly noted and corrected. Thanks CP.

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Two more articles on John Taylor in Derbyshire are:-

(1) "John Taylor in Derbyshire 1839-1851" written by Lynn Willies and published in the PDMHS Bulletin, Volume 6, No.3, pp.146-161, April 1976.

Briefly,this is part one of a two part article and the author's introduction says:-

"The development of the Alport, Magpie, Hubberdale, and Longstone Edge Mines is outlined for the periods before and during the regime of John Taylor, in an attempt to assess the imposition of large scale Cornish mining methods on the more traditional Derbyshire mines.

Part 1 considers the mines, each of which has been described previously in varying degrees of detail by Miss Kirkham (see references) and her findings are discussed in the light of much additional material. Maps of the veins and mines are shown at the end of this part.

Part II to be published later will outline Taylor's background and achievements outside Derbyshire, and will examine to what extent he was able to adapt his methods to the tchnical, organisational, and management problems at the Derbyshire mines."

Details of the second article are as follows:-

(2) "John Taylor in Derbyshire 1839-1851: Part II", written by Lynn Willies, published in PDMHS Bulletin, Volume 6, No.5, pp.218-232. May 1977.

PDMHS have over the years published Special Publications such as a combined booklet entitled:-

"Magpie Mine, Sheldon, near Bakewell: A Chronology" by Ivor. J. Brown, Min. Dip., A.M.I.Min.E., C.C.M., chartered engineer, and "The Geology of the Magpie Mine" by Trevor D. Ford, B.Sc., Ph.D., F.G.S. published around 1963/64.

"The Magpie Mine, Sheldon, Derbyshire" by Ivor J. Brown and Trevor D. Ford, published by PDMHS as Special Publication No. 3 in 1971.

"Magpie Mine" - A guide for visitors by Lynn Willies 1979, revised edition 1990 from which I quote as follows:-

"The Cornish Influence.
In 1839 the mine was again opened, this time with a new group of shareholders, and with the Great Redsoil taken into the title. The manager was John Taylor who operated mines in all areas of Britain, and as far away as Mexico, under the 'Cornish System'. About a score of Cornish men came to live in Sheldon to introduce new ideas and large scale mining to Derbyshire. They built the round chimney and round powderhouse, and living accommodation for the agent or 'captain'. Taylor quickly brought in his new regime; he sank the shaft to about 114 fathoms (684 feet n.b. 1 fathom = 6 feet), developed the mine in an efficient manner, introduced new practices such as cast steel borers, safety hats, safety fuse, iron wire winding rope, and made drains to conduct surface water away. But his 40 inch Cornish steam pumping engine, efficient as it was was unable to cope when a foot thick clay bed was penetrated, and the mine flooded in all but the driest weather. His proposed solution was to install a 70 inch engine on either a new or the existing shaft, but the usefulness of this was hotly disputed by Wyatt and supporters, who felt a drainage tunnel or sough was necessary. Both groups were outvoted by a third group of shareholders who saw the mine as a perpetual drain on their resources. Appeals to the Duke of Devonshire, who had introducecd Taylor, fell on equally deaf ears, for he too had lost much on other ventures in the area."

p.s. I also see in this Guide that there is a picture of me disappearing into Magpie Sough Tail complete with lorry inner tube for floating out on the return trip to "day". This was taken by Douggie Fearn "Op Mole's" photographer (who filmed the "Op Mole" film - Underground Journey) in about 1960/61 before the sough tail collapsed in the winter of 1962/63 - Paul Deakin, my No.2 ex and myself did a survey of the sough from the "boil-up" to the main shaft in November, 1962, and the sough tail was still accessible but in a very dicey state, it collapsed soon afterwards.

Thanks very much for yet another informative and interesting post. Pity you never got around to writing that book. I have a feeling that it may well have been on many 'essential' reading lists. :flowers:

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Having missed most of this discussion on account of being away visiting friends in the North, there's just two things I can add - firstly, there's the collected census records of miners on the PDMHS website at http://www.pdmhs.com/CensusAll.asp . Secondly, trouble with Magpie sough tail was nothing new - I saw mention in the catalogue of the Brooke-Taylor papers of some correspondence c.1900 regarding a shaft on Magpie sough in Shacklow wood being unsafe!

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I’ve been browsing through the story of Cornish miners movements throughout the UK in the 18th and 19th century

A little off topic perhaps, but was visiting relatives in the local church yard today when I chanced upon the grave of a Cornish surveyor from Truro. He was the assistant suveyor on the Trent & Mersey canal, so may well have had a mining background.
He died in the 1850s & was obviously well thought of by the company, whom provided a handsome memorial.

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