How dangerous is mine exploration?

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Tamarmole
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie Topic Starter

11 years ago

Having a late night surf and I came across this on the ever accurate Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_UK_caving_fatalities

It claims to list all deaths of recreational cavers in natural caves and disused mines.

It certainly misses out the poor chap who abseiled into a Scottish coal mine a few years ago (2009?) and also the young lady who rigged her rack backwards and took a fatal plummet in Wheal Edward in my neck of the woods many years back.

This got me thinking - how many mine exploration fatalities have there been in the uk? I suspect, given the objective dangers of our chosen pastime, we have a phenomenal safety record.

Apologies if anyone finds this a bit ghoulish / morbid.

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Roy Morton
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Newbie

11 years ago

Check this out Rick 🙂

http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=11647.0

"You Chinese think of everything!"
"But I''m not Chinese!"
"Then you must have forgotten something!"

davel
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Newbie

11 years ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_UK_caving_fatalities ... deaths of recreational cavers in natural caves and disused mines.

It certainly misses out the poor chap who abseiled into a Scottish coal mine a few years ago (2009?)

Now added.

Quote:

... and also the young lady who rigged her rack backwards and took a fatal plummet in Wheal Edward in my neck of the woods many years back.

If you can let me have details and a reference I will add that one as well.

Dave

Tamarmole
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Newbie Topic Starter

11 years ago

"davel" wrote:

"Tamarmole" wrote:
...

Quote:

... and also the young lady who rigged her rack backwards and took a fatal plummet in Wheal Edward in my neck of the woods many years back.

If you can let me have details and a reference I will add that one as well.

Dave

Before my time. Ali Neill would probably know.

Tamarmole
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie Topic Starter

11 years ago

I am amazed that we have had so few fatalities compared with cavers especially given our typically shonky rigging (compared with cavers) and the loose ground we routinely encounter.

Is this because we are good at what we do or is it that there are so few mine explorers compared with cavers that statistics are on our side?

I must admit I have had at least two very near misses (a collapsing dig and an SRT cock up). On both occasions the god's were smiling on me, but if things had gone slightly differently........

Cat_Bones
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Newbie

11 years ago

I think it's down to 2 factors... firstly, water is a much more dynamic and less static entity within caves. Secondly, mines were made to be accessible, whereas nature couldn't care less.

I also think that there's an awareness that mines and the things in them degrade over time, whereas caves again, are generally fairly static. I think that this awareness probably makes us mine-explorers a little more cautious.

gNick
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Newbie

11 years ago

The few cavers I talk to (I only know a few) seem to regard caves as stable & possibly are more likely to be overconfident, in the same way that climbers can be on 'easy' descent routes.

We on the other hand know that mines are as trustworthy as politicians and therefore are less likely to drop our guard.

Or we are lucky / statistically insignificant / all Captain Scarlet...

Don't look so embarrassed, it's a family trait...

fjällvandring
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

11 years ago

When I talk to mine explorers I know of very few who have really experienced a collapse. Was speaking to a member of this website in Wales the other day who was temporally buried by deads recently, he was alright though thankfully. I have experienced one collapse in a slate mine, 5 tonne rock falling from roof plus many others subsequently, heard many small falls in limestone/sandstone mines, plus a few tiny bits of rock in Wrysgan the other day, which usually indicates that a crack is expanding so I'm told although it could quite easily have been from slight movement on the tip below me, not the roof.

So I reckon collapses are rare, we tend to explore quite discretely, sensibly, and I think we were all told about false floors from when we started exploring/earlier. I didn't enter metal mines for many years for this reason. When it comes to gasses I know everyone is aware of this danger and the few who do explore coal mines always have gas detectors.

Another reason might be that mine exploration attracts people with a common interest in history, and in the underworld, whereas caving is similar in many ways, there is that sporty side which appears more often than in mine exploration, but I don't know.

Personally I find quarries a lot more scary, particularly ones where the overburden of rock is also broken and shattered around the edges. In Dinorwig, was once near Twll Mawr and a heavy rain shower moved a rather large amount of tip.

jeg elsker Norge, landets dialekter, folk, landskap og naturen!

RJV
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

11 years ago

Can the two activities be compared fairly? More people cave and an average caving trip is probably always going to be harder, more committing & potentially problematic to escape from than an average mine trip.

The potential for roof falls isn't really a factor. They plainly don't cause huge problems to mine explorers and in any event, the same issues exist in caves.

christwigg
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

11 years ago

#10

If Dave is updating the list of fatalities, there's the Smallcleugh one too that prompted the barrier and danger sign at the first junction.

[photo]Smallcleugh-Lead-Mine-User-Album-Image-81770[/photo]

Only details I can find are :-

1983 • September - 17 year old Scout killed in Smallcleugh

John Lawson
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

11 years ago

#11

I think there is an obvious difference between caves and mines. Water has made the former and miners try to remove water from them, so that there is little danger of being trapped in a mine by water, but this certainly does not apply to caves.
Chris I am pretty sure that I uplifted details of the Smallcleugh fatality to the Smallcleugh history site. If you want any more please send a pm.

davel
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Newbie

11 years ago

#12

"christwigg" wrote:
If Dave is updating the list of fatalities, there's the Smallcleugh one too that prompted the barrier and danger sign at the first junction.

I wasn't planning to take it on as a regular activity. 😞

However, if anyone can provide citations for specific incidents I would be willing to add them to the list.

As far as roof falls are concerned, I think that mines are significantly more liable to this as the rock has been removed relatively recently (and much more suddenly in geological terms), and far less time has elapsed for stresses to be relieved by falls.

Dave

fjällvandring
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Newbie

11 years ago

#13

I agree about caves being less a factor with roof falls, particularly in stone mines where the natural direction and bedding of the stone is used to ease out the blocks, leaving more blocks above ready to break in exactly the same way, some of the limestone/sandstone mines I've been to have truly made me nervous and you often hear bits of roof fall in them.

jeg elsker Norge, landets dialekter, folk, landskap og naturen!

Horsemaddad
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

11 years ago

#14

I seem to remember an item in a NMRS newsletter (this would be around the early 80's) that described an attempt by two chaps from Bradford to descend one of the shafts at the Yarnbury mines next to Grassington Moor. The only gear they had was a length of rope, which wasn't long enough as it turned out. The first guy descended hand over hand until he reached the bottom of the rope...and that was the end of him. Does anyone else recall this incident or am I just dreaming it?

Colin

ttxela
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

11 years ago

#15

Also perhaps add the chap who came to grief in Buckden Gavel (some time ago)

Alasdair Neill
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11 years ago

#16

The Wikiarticle seems to be a straight copy of an article which appeared in Descent, Chris asked for corrections so a revised addition could appear, I am not sure if that was ever done. Omissions from the original later sent to him included two known caving fatalities in Devon.
The perception amongst some cavers that any mine is going to collapse about there ears is perhaps contraindicated by my experiences; I have known a couple of places where there have been recent collapses in old mines, all happening when no one was present & very predictable by the conditions of the particularly bad ground or very dodgy timbering. In caves I have twice been on the "wrong" side of boulder chokes which have collapsed & also seen a boulder fall in a well used cave (Alum Pot, probably triggered by freezing) & there was the recent unexpected collapse in the far reaches of Daren Cilau. However I think it is a fact that most actual cave rescues have been due to inexperience, or bad judgement re flooding.

fjällvandring
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

11 years ago

#17

I've learnt to avoid most dodgy areas of mines, always checking the roof for any obviously large slabs about to break free, plus I have heard and have experience that collapses do sometimes have warning in that we'll hear small amounts of movement, small pieces breaking away before the big event.
Having not done many caves I didn't realise boulder chokes were like that frequently, my bad sorry.

jeg elsker Norge, landets dialekter, folk, landskap og naturen!

gNick
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

11 years ago

#18

On a slightly flippant note, if I find one of the loathsome reptiles that insist on spray-painting arrows in Smallcleugh they will find out just how dangerous mine exploration can be... :devil:

Don't look so embarrassed, it's a family trait...

AR
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

11 years ago

#19

We get the same species of idiot down here in Masson, and I suspect you've probably made the same suppository threats against anyone found with a spraycan underground.... :guns:

Follow the horses, Johnny my laddie, follow the horses canny lad-oh!

gNick
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

11 years ago

#20

"AR" wrote:
We get the same species of idiot down here in Masson, and I suspect you've probably made the same suppository threats against anyone found with a spraycan underground.... :guns:

I was of an all over body paint job with can contents before suppository treatment with 'person' in question left to find their way out with just hat and boots...

Don't look so embarrassed, it's a family trait...