A sad bit of mining vandalism · AditNow Community

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NeilC
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie Topic Starter

11 years ago

A friend brought this to my attention -

http://www.flickr.com/photos/16809752@N05/8201353536/

Sorry to see it go even if the landowner did give permission for it to be removed.

But to cut it into pieces to get it out? Come on, at least go to the effort of digging through the collapse to get it out in one piece. :curse:

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RJV
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

11 years ago

Out of interest, what distinguishes a 'WW1 skip Wagon' from an everyday ten-a-penny side tipping wagon? Just because it was war department issue?

NeilC
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie Topic Starter

11 years ago

No idea - I never got a chance to see the wagon, and guess I never will!

(P.s I was being sarcastic in OP about them putting is some effort to get it out, it should never have been removed full stop.)

RJV
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

11 years ago

Humprey Household in one of his quirky books says that vast quantities of light railway stuff became available through the War Department Surplus Board after the war. Quite surprised then that its the only one remaining as they presumably flooded the market for a few years?

iestyn999
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

11 years ago

It seems a bit strange for there only to be one left in existence. But, if that is the case, now there are none.
It should never have been moved, let alone cut to bits.

ttxela
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

11 years ago

Would it be this one?

🔗Personal-Album-259-Image-90373[linkphoto]Personal-Album-259-Image-90373[/linkphoto][/link]

Seems a terrible shame to cut it up and remove it - I note this seems to have been done in November 2012?

Tamarmole
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

11 years ago

"ttxela" wrote:
Would it be this one?

🔗Personal-Album-259-Image-90373[linkphoto]Personal-Album-259-Image-90373[/linkphoto][/link]

Seems a terrible shame to cut it up and remove it - I note this seems to have been done in November 2012?

Ah - a sighting of the greater bearded railway nerd.

ragl
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

11 years ago

It may not be as bad as you think. Knowing Ted MaCavoy, he would most likely be retrieving the wagon for preservation; reading the caption for the photograph posted doesn't mention scrapping, just removal, in pieces and, I'm assuming, re-assembly later.

Cheers

Alan

Maggot
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

11 years ago

So, removing it from its historic context and location by chopping it up with power tools isn't as bad as we think?

Yes it fookin is. The attitude shown by his comments on that flickr page is that he's just an idiotic thief with no respect for history or archaeology - he just wants bits for his train set, and screw the rest of us.

Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Tamarmole
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

11 years ago

#10

If an artefact, whatever it is, is not under direct and significant threat it should be left in situ.

exspelio
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

11 years ago

#11

"Tamarmole" wrote:
If an artefact, whatever it is, is not under direct and significant threat it should be left in situ.

You mean like the Rag & Chain Pump in the mining museum at Matlock Bath ??

Always remember, nature is in charge, get it wrong and it is you who suffers!.

Tamarmole
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

11 years ago

#12

"exspelio" wrote:

"Tamarmole" wrote:
If an artefact, whatever it is, is not under direct and significant threat it should be left in situ.

You mean like the Rag & Chain Pump in the mining museum at Matlock Bath ??

Yep.

As an example a few years ago we found a wooden pump body underground. We recorded it and left it in situ. Occasionally I check up on it. If the situation was to change we would reassess our decision.

More recently I found a powder horn in a very obscure corner of a mine - there is no immediate threat to it - it is still there.

Before any artefact is removed it needs properly recording in situ and after removal proper conservation.

Cat_Bones
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

11 years ago

#13

"ragl" wrote:
It may not be as bad as you think. Knowing Ted MaCavoy, he would most likely be retrieving the wagon for preservation; reading the caption for the photograph posted doesn't mention scrapping, just removal, in pieces and, I'm assuming, re-assembly later.

Cheers

Alan

How the **** is cutting something like that up into bits, conserving it?! If it gets re-assembled, it'll be covered in weld marks that weren't there before for a start. Also, he explicitly states that he took the "key bits", so he's left the rest of it in there presumably?

I think I saw someone compare this to the people that coated a crane in box with engine-oil in a misguided attempt at preservation... this isn't the same; those guys could be forgiven for doing something that at first glane appeared commendable, but only a retard would think that cutting something up would constitute "preservation". :curse:

davetidza
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

11 years ago

#14

You mean like the Rag & Chain Pump in the mining museum at Matlock Bath ??

The Rag and Chain pump at the Museum was recovered from a point some 20 feet below the water level, at a point which had been reached after the T.S.G. had used a 415v 5 HP Flygt pump for some 36 hours. It was retrieved from a level that had not been entered since c1850 and is unlikely to ever be entered again.

davetidza
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

11 years ago

#15

I should also have pointed out, that it arrived at the Museum a good 10 years after it was salvaged from underground.

scooptram
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

11 years ago

#16

the wagon looks like a Hudson v tipper quite common but its still vandalism :guns:

Tamarmole
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

11 years ago

#17

"davetidza" wrote:
You mean like the Rag & Chain Pump in the mining museum at Matlock Bath ??

The Rag and Chain pump at the Museum was recovered from a point some 20 feet below the water level, at a point which had been reached after the T.S.G. had used a 415v 5 HP Flygt pump for some 36 hours. It was retrieved from a level that had not been entered since c1850 and is unlikely to ever be entered again.

Interesting - it is arguable that if the level had been pumped once it could be pumped again. If it was my call and I was sure that the access was secure I would have left the rag and chain pump in situ after recording it.

That said it was not my call and the outcome for this particular artefact appears to have been a good one with tangible benefits so........

Whilst I stand by my "threat" argument I can see that it is possible to justify artefact removal on the basis of (say) educational or research value.

The down side to my particular ethical stand point is that it sort of relies on the fact that everyone else is a decent chap - it only takes one prat who takes a fancy to something and it is gone forever.

Don't start me on mineral collectors :curse:

fjällvandring
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

11 years ago

#18

meh, collecting. When we go underground, we want to marvel the sites, shame that occasionally, or often people have stuck them into collections. Rather like in ancient Egypt, I love the British museum but would rather see that stuff where it belongs. I'm sure if I was mummified I wouldn't want my coffin being distributed around by collectors, disrespectful, very, very disrespectful.

Anyway, back to mining...

jeg elsker Norge, landets dialekter, folk, landskap og naturen!

staffordshirechina
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

11 years ago

#19

One thing that needs remembering is that in 1972 a lot of our modern thoughts on preservation and ethics were not around.
The pump was a 'trophy' won at great effort and was expected to be exhibited with pride in a 'museum'.
In those days everyone thought that museums were waiting with open arms to receive rotting old crap, a bit like raid the pyramids really.

Nowadays it would probably be as Tamar says, plotted, pictured and left behind.

Cutting up a perfectly good tub is a similar crime to those who removed the steam engine parts from Wrysgan

JohnnearCfon
50.2% (Neutral)
Newbie

11 years ago

#20

"staffordshirechina" wrote:
Nowadays it would probably be as Tamar says, plotted, pictured and left behind.

Cutting up a perfectly good tub is a similar crime to those who removed the steam engine parts from Wrysgan

Not quite if what was posted on that site is true. If done with the permission of the owner, it was not theft. The engine at Wrysgan was theft, therefore a criminal act!