RJV
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12 years ago
A vaguely obscure subject but I wonder what & where the oldest extant tub in the UK is?

The oldest one I've seen personally is in the excellent German Technology Museum (http://sdtb.de/Deutsch.556.0.html) dating back to the 16th Century as seen here in one of Iclok's photographs:

🔗Personal-Album-856-Image-040[linkphoto]Personal-Album-856-Image-040[/linkphoto][/link]

Not certain that we have anything that could come close to that age but would be interested to know.

Cheers!
Morrisey
12 years ago
As the Germans say "vorsprung durch technik", we were probably still dragging baskets at that time. 😉
RJV
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12 years ago
There is actually evidence of 'rails' in England which are potentially even older, just not the carts as far as I know.
In fairness however they would have been put in place by German miners...
ICLOK
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12 years ago
I have some stuff on this subject, I'll have a look once home as I started studying this and I believe there are even older wagons called Hunds from memory in Germany.

The Wollaton waggonway in Notts is 15th Century being in use during Queen Elizabeth 1st reign!! So you can bet the technology was copied from somewhere.

See-
http://www.aditnow.co.uk/mines/Wollaton-Waggonway-Tramway/?gowhere=%2fmines%2f%3fpid%3d1%26ac%3dA%26ad%3d50 
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh Creeper!!!!!
fjällvandring
12 years ago
That tub looks awesome. In all fairness it looks more trustworthy than some of the trains up here on the west coast of Cumbria.

I've seen wooden rails frequently in mines, any idea what the tubs on such railways would have looked like?
jeg elsker Norge, landets dialekter, folk, landskap og naturen!
RJV
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12 years ago
"fjällvandring" wrote:


I've seen wooden rails frequently in mines, any idea what the tubs on such railways would have looked like?



If you mean the wooden rails that you find in northern Pennine mines then I think that they'd just be fairly standard tubs with flanged iron wheels though I'm sure there are people who might have a better idea.

Re the tub in Ian's photo above, there's a great little model hidden away in the National Rail Museum in York of a mocked up scene based upon the illustrations in De Re Metallica which shows similarly built tubs in use albeit with the tubs running on parallel boards rather than rails & guided by a central pin. Have a photo somewhere which doesn't want to be found...
The Elizabethan/German mines in the Lakes had similar (volume X of the Transactions of the Cumberland & Westmorland Antiquarian & Archaeological Soc has a good article in it if you're that way inclined...).
RJV
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12 years ago
"ICLOK" wrote:

I believe there are even older wagons called Hunds from memory in Germany.



Cos they barked like a dog I think it said!
Wormster
12 years ago
There's one of T'owd Man's trugs hanging up in the BEC corner in the front bar at "The Center of The Universe". I'm not sure of the date, I'll try and get more info (and maybe a picture) if we drop in there tomorrow!
Better to regret something you have done - than to regret something you have not done.
ICLOK
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12 years ago
"RJV" wrote:

"ICLOK" wrote:

I believe there are even older wagons called Hunds from memory in Germany.



Cos they barked like a dog I think it said!



Errrrrrrm nooooooo it's cos when they were pulled along they followed at the heel like a dog .... Hence hund..... ::) 🙂
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh Creeper!!!!!
RJV
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12 years ago
"ICLOK" wrote:

"RJV" wrote:

"ICLOK" wrote:

I believe there are even older wagons called Hunds from memory in Germany.



Cos they barked like a dog I think it said!



Errrrrrrm nooooooo it's cos when they were pulled along they followed at the heel like a dog .... Hence hund..... ::) :)



They were pushed in front though, not pulled behind.
ICLOK
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12 years ago
Pretty certain that both was the case, there are engravings of both but until I can get to me books am somewhat stuffed being up I'm the NW on biz so all memory at mo. :flowers:
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh Creeper!!!!!
Peter Burgess
12 years ago
Early Wooden Railways by Lewis has quite a bit to say on this I seem to recall. Or am I thinking of another work?
RJV
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12 years ago
Yes, was flicking through it last night. He says that the Hund / 'barking like a dog' description comes from Agricola which I've never been able to summon up the energy to read properly. He goes on to say that Agricola's explanation has been challenged with the suggestion that it comes from the Czech (or somewhere in those parts) word Hunt meaning carriage which is entirely plausible.

He does go on to describe an early long, narrow tub in Barneycraig which sounds very much like the tub in Smallcleugh towards the end of the Middleceugh 2nd Sun Vein, just past the point it crosses Longcleugh Vein.

That tub is outbye of VM workings so presumably isn't that old though its not to say the pattern isn't I suppose.
AR
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12 years ago
"RJV" wrote:

He does go on to describe an early long, narrow tub in Barneycraig which sounds very much like the tub in Smallcleugh towards the end of the Middleceugh 2nd Sun Vein, just past the point it crosses Longcleugh Vein.



That sounds similar to the tub now in the Peak District Mining Museum that came (I think) from Ash Nursery Mine on Longstone Edge.
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davetidza
12 years ago
British Mining 54 - Fairbairn, R.A.1995 Lead Mine Waggons - is an account of various waggons from various mines.
rufenig
12 years ago
Just a coincidence
Archaeologists find 'world's oldest railway tunnel' in Derbyshire
Archaeologists in Derbyshire have found what they believe is the world's oldest railway tunnel.

The tunnel lies on the route of the Butterley Gangroad, a horse-operated railway built by 1793 to link the Cromford Canal with limestone quarries at Crich.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-22342239 
ICLOK
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12 years ago
Mr RJV I had forgotten the barking dog description totally ... I need to re read my early railways stuff as I didnt remember that at all :flowers: Some hunds are pushed but some are pulled and its all very regional..... You have a better memory than me for sure! :thumbup:
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh Creeper!!!!!
ICLOK
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12 years ago
"rufenig" wrote:

Just a coincidence
Archaeologists find 'world's oldest railway tunnel' in Derbyshire
Archaeologists in Derbyshire have found what they believe is the world's oldest railway tunnel.

The tunnel lies on the route of the Butterley Gangroad, a horse-operated railway built by 1793 to link the Cromford Canal with limestone quarries at Crich.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-22342239 



LeeW and I just did our own Photo survey of this at the invite of the entrance owner, its really more of a long under bridge and appears at first glance to be built in 3 distinct sections. The tunnel on the Flockton Tramway/Waggonway (wooden rails as built) in Yorkshire pre dates it by afew years. (it also has an awesome early viaduct.

http://www.aditnow.co.uk/mines/Flockton-Tramway/?gowhere=%2fmines%2f%3fpid%3d1%26ac%3dA%26ad%3d50 
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh Creeper!!!!!
Graigfawr
12 years ago
"ICLOK" wrote:

"rufenig" wrote:

Just a coincidence
Archaeologists find 'world's oldest railway tunnel' in Derbyshire
Archaeologists in Derbyshire have found what they believe is the world's oldest railway tunnel.

The tunnel lies on the route of the Butterley Gangroad, a horse-operated railway built by 1793 to link the Cromford Canal with limestone quarries at Crich.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-22342239 



LeeW and I just did our own Photo survey of this at the invite of the entrance owner, its really more of a long under bridge and appears at first glance to be built in 3 distinct sections. The tunnel on the Flockton Tramway/Waggonway (wooden rails as built) in Yorkshire pre dates it by afew years. (it also has an awesome early viaduct.

http://www.aditnow.co.uk/mines/Flockton-Tramway/?gowhere=%2fmines%2f%3fpid%3d1%26ac%3dA%26ad%3d50 



The Royal Commission on Ancient & Historical Monuments in Wales determined that Chauncy Townsend's timber-railed waggonway of 1762 from a quay on the River Tawe to his Engine Pit had a tunnel on it (S.R.Hughes "The archaeology of an early railway system: the Brecon Forest Tramroads", Aberystwyth, 1990, p.329). The appears to be the oldest known tunnel on a surface railway - there are many older mine workings that had rails liad in them.
ICLOK
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12 years ago
I wasnt saying Flockton was the oldest just older than Fritchley... 1762 is fantastic... !!
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh Creeper!!!!!

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