Tamarmole
  • Tamarmole
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15 years ago
Has anyone tried precipitating copper using scrap iron?

I am intending to set up a small precipitation launder for a film company - Having never done it before I would be interested to know how long it would take and what sort of results I could expect.
Gwyn
  • Gwyn
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15 years ago
I've not done it myself but there are a few pages on the subject on www.parysmountain.co.uk Click on processes > precipitation to find them. May or may not be of help; good luck!
stuey
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15 years ago
Simple demonstration. Get some weak copper sulphate solution, whack in some steel wool. Watch the solution get decolourised and the steel wool get replaced by copper. It goes "claggy" and the stuff formed is a kind of slurry, rather than nicely metal. It's a bit like copper grease, but less greasy. The term is "finely divided". The product is Iron Sulphate which is clear and soluble.

That's your demo.

Doing it in practice will be far more tricky. The concs are a lot lower but the reaction will take place gradually. I have no idea how long it would take, but there are 2 factors at play here. Concentration and surface area. Obviously, the best idea is to maximise both. You need to keep the water flowing as much as possible, but to keep it still, so any sediment does not get disturbed. Big tank that is scrupulously clean and iron stuff with as big a surface area as possible. You will then need to make that tank redundant, decant the liquor and shake the iron stuff (remaining). Collect the copper mud and melt it and then refine it.

I have a bit more time on my hands than usual at the moment, if you want an extra pair of hands. Give me a shout.

I've also given it a fair degree of thought 🙂
Graigfawr
15 years ago
The next scale up from wire wool scouring pads would be turnings and wire scrap - still an enormous surface to volume ratio.

Next step up is a minature Parys Mountain preciptition pit filled with thin gauge sheet steel, light tubing, etc.

Try and clean off gease, paint etc - a light kilning will readily achieve this.

I presume that galvanised steel is best avoided - though its position in the reactivity series suggests that it might behave in a similar manner to the steel substrate?

Do let Aditnow know how you get on!
Manicminer
15 years ago
I threw a chain into the outlet of a certain mine I know last spring. I went back every month to check it. Nothing until it rusted and then the copper sticks to it like a purple stain. You have just reminded me that I need to go back there with some steel sheets to further my experiments.
Gold is where you find it
stuey
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15 years ago
Yep, a popular way of making finely divided copper is with zinc metal and copper chloride. You get Zn chloride and copper. Plus, when you wash it with hydrochloric acid, you dissolve the zinc for a super duper pure product.

A launder would be a great idea, as you could get a massive surface area and if you did it right, having a trough at the end so any sediment would settle out.

The snag you have is not getting any crap in it at all. If it gets sediment in it, it will make a right old mess when you melt it/cast it. You could of course purify it by electrolysis, but that would be overkill. If you have a low surface area, it may have paid to periodically agitate the scum off it, otherwise it will produce a protective layer. You could go a step further and have a mechanical agitator (small waterwheel perhaps) and then run the liquor through a filter. This would be quite efficient.

I think it sounds like a great idea and great fun. :thumbsup:
spaceinvader
15 years ago
hi at gawton mine,on the tamar is the emerald stream.water flowing from the old waste tips covers the stones and stuff put in in a nice copper ? green coat.a hard emerald green crust,not the usual green river salad.copper was recovered here and at dgc using old horse shoes in ponds.i will try to find the book with the info ,,
stuey
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15 years ago
There is a fair misconception about that the "blue stuff" or "green stuff" you see on mine walls is either copper carbonate/sulphate. The reality is that it's copper silicate which could be abbreviated to "silica with a bit of the above giving it it's colour".

I retrieved a bucket of copper (blue) flowstone and decided I was going to smelt it and make me some copper nuggets.

Upon putting it into a bucket, it became liquid like blue pancake mix. I dried it out on binliners before putting it in a pot in a bonfire. Rather than getting a load of red copper oxide, I got the silica with a reddish tinge. Think talcum powder with a bit of rust. Undeterred, I smelted it, using an industrial vacuum cleaner and a plantpot/bucket/coal furnace. I got a very small copper nugget and my estimation of the ore was that it was about 2% Cu.

Bedford united has good "green stuff" in a river but again, most of this is silica. The actual concentration of CuSO4 in minewater is very little, really very little. The secret is getting the superweak solution in contact with as much bare iron as possible, as the reaction happens 100% of the time, for sure. If you do it right, you can get a very high yield.

There was a precipitation works at bissoe, as well as the ever popular ochre recovery. I've pondered the dissolved metals in the county adit and wondered why nobody is using those ponds. It's almost like ignoring something to be recycled.

The catch is this. You get a sludge, in order to get a marketable product, you need to cast it into ingots. This is a pain and probably why nobody does it.

I've climbed down countless ladders and observed the copper encrustations on them. The water in one shaft is actually blue with what I can only imagine is copper sulphate. There must be dozens of kilos of the stuff in there.

Getting one of these right would involve a whole load of trialling, rather than theory.

The crux of the matter, for efficient copper production would be noting the rate of reaction. Different solutions/impurities would influence the porosity of the product. It's all very well chucking a load of scrap picks/hilts into a pond and leaving it for a decade and then digging the stuff out as a bonus, years later, the name of the game is getting the reaction to happen as thoroughly as possible, with as little copper sulphate solution going to waste as possible.

If I was to do it, I'd go for machine shop swarf as a starting material and then get the liquor to flow down a gutter about 6" deep, which would be filled with swarf, perhaps 30ft long or so. I'd then have a deep tank with a centre baffle at one end, as to force any sediment to drop out of solution. A couple of these set up in parallel would be ideal, so you could clean one out whilst running the other.

If you could have the rig set up so you could jack up one end and decant the supernatent liquid, it would give you your precipitate easily and quickly.

I'm not sure what the yield could potentially be, but it would most certainly be a few quid, for very little work. (assuming you designed and built it right).

S :thumbup:
Minegeo
15 years ago
Parys Mountain mine waters typically ran 50 to 80ppm (or grammes per tonne) copper when they were recovering copper by intermetallic displacement on to scurf iron in the 1900's. Modern in situ leach projects may get as high as a couple of hundred ppm copper so the issue here is volume of water. Typical dry precipitate assays around 60% metallic copper.

Tamarmole
  • Tamarmole
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15 years ago
Thanks for the replys. If I am honest I am probably more confused now then when I started (nothing new there then).

My understanding was: copper was deposited directly onto the scrap iron, the iron being deposited in the bottom of the tank/launder as ochre. Copper recovery consisting of simply scraping the deposit off the scrap.
stuey
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15 years ago
Copper Sulphate (soluble) + Iron (scrap)------> Iron Sulphate (soluble) + Copper (sludge stuck to iron).

Is about as simple as it gets.

The product varies between being a sludge and being "shell like".

If it has been allowed to build up over a very long period of time, it will be more "shelly" than sludgy. (Think ladder rungs in a copper mine), you need to break this off. I reckon a good way would be to whack it in a cement mixer.

Hopefully that clears my waffle up.

:)

Can you tell us more about the site where this launder is supposed to go and what sort of flow you're looking at? :thumbsup:
geoff
  • geoff
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15 years ago
Some years ago I collected coarse clean crystals of copper replacing rails in Geevor, not much clean up required I then melted and cast the copper.
Tamarmole
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15 years ago
"stuey" wrote:

Copper Sulphate (soluble) + Iron (scrap)------> Iron Sulphate (soluble) + Copper (sludge stuck to iron).

Is about as simple as it gets.

The product varies between being a sludge and being "shell like".

If it has been allowed to build up over a very long period of time, it will be more "shelly" than sludgy. (Think ladder rungs in a copper mine), you need to break this off. I reckon a good way would be to whack it in a cement mixer.

Hopefully that clears my waffle up.

:)

Can you tell us more about the site where this launder is supposed to go and what sort of flow you're looking at? :thumbsup:



Cheers.

We are plannng to put a box launder / sluice trough in the adit tail of the G&C pump lobby. Water is piped from main stopes. Haven't measred flow although its fairly steady from a 2 inch hose
stuey
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15 years ago
Are you still on-site there? I'd like to pop over at some point and have a yap/poke around.

Somewhere I have some good photos of G+C from when it was "rediscovered". I'll see if I can dig them out.
Tamarmole
  • Tamarmole
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15 years ago
"stuey" wrote:

Are you still on-site there? I'd like to pop over at some point and have a yap/poke around.

Somewhere I have some good photos of G+C from when it was "rediscovered". I'll see if I can dig them out.



PM sent
Tamarmole
  • Tamarmole
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15 years ago
I have now completed our copper precipitation experiment - which worked successfully.

I piped water from flooded stopes in the George & Charlotte directly into a wooden trough filled with life expired steel sleepers, copper being visibly deposited on the sleepers.

If I was setting up asimilar demonstartion in future I think that I would set up a second trough full of deads and would run the water through this first and then through the trough of scap.

The exercise also proved that keeping wooden launders watertight is a bit of a dark art. We resorted to a modern silicone filler. If I did it again I would probably like to use something a bit more authentic - any ideas.

Jimbo
  • Jimbo
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15 years ago
"Tamarmole" wrote:

The exercise also proved that keeping wooden launders watertight is a bit of a dark art. We resorted to a modern silicone filler. If I did it again I would probably like to use something a bit more authentic - any ideas.



Tar & hemp 🙂
"PDHMS, WMRG, DCC, Welsh Mines Society, Northern Mines Research Group, Nenthead Mines Society and General Forum Gobshite!"
AR
  • AR
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15 years ago
I've seen tarred rag used on an original launder (probably 19th century but could be earlier)
Follow the horses, Johnny my laddie, follow the horses canny lad-oh!
Morlock
15 years ago
Coal fire ash works well on leaky lock gates. 🙂
Tamarmole
  • Tamarmole
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15 years ago
I've seen tarred hessian used on a launder in Devon Great Consols - I guess thats the route to take if I ever need to build another launder.

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