I belieive the long centre buffers shown in that photo of Welsh Pony came off the third, unconverted, steam loco (Margaret?). I understand they were removed from Welsh Pony before it left Llechwedd and much later they were reunited with the frames along with the wheels from the Maen Offeren brake wagon that was used underground before being sold to Gloddfa Ganol circa 1974.

Rhiwbach also had a homebuilt loco. A Howard and Company skip wagon with the front half of an Austin Ruby mounted on it. The frame (with frame of Austin still on it) still survives.

On a sort-of related note (but not really), am I mistaken in thinking that part of the original Welsh Highland Railway (it may have been the Porthmadoc, Beddgelert and South Snowdon Railway) was intended to be electrified - as far back as around 1900?

That would pre-date this by a couple of decades, although if I recall correctly nothing was actually built and the locos were never delivered.

A fair amount of earthworks (and contractors' track laid) south of Rhyd Ddu. The route was also constructed(including the three tunnels) through the Aberglaslyn Pass.

The route PB&SS, most of which was constructed, immediately north of Beddgelert was on a different alignment. The reverse curves were much sharper and steeper due to the proposed use of electric traction. When the WHR was subsequently built in the 1920s the route in this area was changed to ease the curves also easing the gradient to a mere 1 in 40, I wonder what the PB&SS gradient was going to be! South of Beddgelert the route was changed too, the original bridge over the road still being extant as is a pair of retaining walls standing in the middle of a field with no embankment leading to them!

It is due to the need for clearence for overhead wires that caused the Aberglaslyn tunnels to be built to such a generous loading gauge that now enables the large Garrets to run through them.

First of all, hello everyone - just joined, very impressed with what you've built up here.

The thing about clearances in the Aberglaslyn tunnels has been exposed during WHR reconstruction as more than a bit of a myth. They were more generous than (say) the NWNGR bridges further north, but the PB&SSR certainly didn't build them to anything like the quoted heights needed for overhead electric. Quite a bit of work has been needed to achieve clearances for future trains (the South African diesel and van are tighter fits than the Garratts), and the Beddgelert end of the Royal Goat tunnel is still quite "snug", as is the shortest of the Pass tunnels.

The PB&SSR route above Beddgelert will be quite visible from the train - it climbs away at a mad gradient from the first bend out of the station, and then climbs up in a cutting to almost cross the WHR route a little below Ty'n y Coed. The path north from Bryn y Felin on the east bank of the Glaslyn is also PB&SSR formation for some distance, but this got obscured when the National Trust concreted it.

Back roughly on topic, the PB&SSR was going to be electric partly/largely as a showcase for hydro-electricity from Cwm Dyli power station (which is the "South Snowdon" it was meant to reach - not the NWNGR station at Rhyd Ddu of the same name). So there's a loose relationship to the power line pole route from Cwm Dyli to Blaenau.

Welcome aboard Ben!

The Battery Electric loco Taffy, converted from a Vulcan Foundry steam loco at Votty, and later to work at Aberllefenni would also have been an interesting beast.

Wikipedia has this to say:

Ten electric locomotives were ordered from Bruce Peebles & Co. Ltd. of Edinburgh (who held a licence from Ganz) and at least six were actually built, although none were delivered. All six were scrapped during the first world war. The electrification project was abandoned about 1906 and a steam locomotive "Russell" was ordered from the Hunslet Engine Company of Leeds.

Ganz were from Budapest and the idea, it seems, was to electrify at 630v AC. There's an article at this http://www.frheritage.org.uk/wiki/Bruce_Peebles_Electric_Locomotives  about the electric locomotives.

They were 0-4-0s and designed to be worked in multiple. They would produce 90hp continuously, but up to 180hp at the risk of overheating. The motors were in effect fixed speed, with power controlled by what would appear to have been a brine bath rheostat!

Having seen these used to control inclines, I worry about the logic of using such a thing in a metal box rattling along an uneven track at 18mph while the driver attempts to control the 630 volts coming in through the roof by raising and lowering the steel plates - and hoping the electrolyte didn't boil away!

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Hi there ICLOK, you may be interested to look at a photo of Llechwedd's lesser known third electric locomotive "Welsh Pony" - there is a pic here http://www.gtj.org.uk/en/blowup1/22651 . I believe it still exists at the West Lancs Railway having been purchased from the Gloddfa Ganol collection when it was broken up.

I love this shot - in the background you can see the electricity route up to the blondin winder (black hut on the skyline) and just to the right of it the blondin mast itself. Photo probably taken on floor 7.

Grahami

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Wikipedia has this to say:

Ten electric locomotives were ordered from Bruce Peebles & Co. Ltd. of Edinburgh (who held a licence from Ganz) and at least six were actually built, although none were delivered. All six were scrapped during the first world war. The electrification project was abandoned about 1906 and a steam locomotive "Russell" was ordered from the Hunslet Engine Company of Leeds.

Ganz were from Budapest and the idea, it seems, was to electrify at 630v AC. There's an article at this http://www.frheritage.org.ul/wiki/Bruce_Peebles_Electric_Locomotives  about the electric locomotives.

They were 0-4-0s and designed to be worked in multiple. They would produce 90hp continuously, but up to 180hp at the risk of overheating. The motors were in effect fixed speed, with power controlled by what would appear to have been a brine bath rheostat!

Having seen these used to control inclines, I worry about the logic of using such a thing in a metal box rattling along an uneven track at 18mph while the driver attempts to control the 630 volts coming in through the roof by raising and lowering the steel plates - and hoping the electrolyte didn't boil away!

Many years ago now the late Rodney Weaver came across these construction drawings of the electric locos. I photographed them for their curiosity value at the time. I can't find my negatives at the moment(!) so apologies for the quality of the scans which were done from the prints. I suspect that all the various drawings which have appeared in various publications were based on these... I hope they're of interest.

Grahami

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Fascinating! I am guessing that the brine variable resistor was not directly in series with the supply to the motor. They may have used a wound rotor induction motor, with brushes, a technology which used to be (and probably still is) used on cranes etc. Full power is applied to the stator winding, and the rotor resistance modifies the speed without reducing the torque very much.

From what I remember, a particular example (using conventional wire wound resistors and contactors to change the tappings) would lift its load at 5.5 feet per minute in the first notch, increasing to 131 feet per minute in 5th. Motor around 40hp, resistors dissipating no more than 3 or 4 Kw. Give it a continuously variable 3-phase resistor network and you would get reasonably progressive speed control.

But I am intrigued by the low voltage. The thing would have been drawing about 100 amps, and the voltage drop in the two overhead wires, and the vital return path through the rails, would have been quite considerable. And they ordered ten, presumably all possibly operating simultaneously.

Perhaps just as well that they went bust.

But the overhead clearance would only need to be an inch or so, with AC at such a low voltage, if they used rigid conductors in the tunnel.

Fascinating drawings Graham - I'm minded of the tram in Thomas the Tank Engine!

The more I think about these locos, the more I wonder how they would have fared. I can see some considerable issues relating to power drop over the distances planned, which are considerably more than you'd ever find within a quarry yard.

Add in to that the potential for sustained 1:20 gradients and control by brine bath and I suspect you'd have a recipe for some very interesting journeys!

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What is the latest photo of Eclipse uploaded here? I know ChrisP uploaded some, but they were detail shots of the decay.

Thanks,
simon

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Not directly connected but related since we seem to have wandered into electrical technology.... Bruce Peebles were one of the prime movers (no pun intended) behind the electric schemes of the PBSSR and the builders of the equipment for the North Wales Power Co also. I rather think they did know what they were doing - at least on the stationary side of things. Here are a couple of drawings I made of the equipment they supplied to the Oakeley electrification in 1906. The motors and starters lasted until closure in 1968. There are photos of them in the Oakeley Archive Album.

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Enjoy

Grahami

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....and here's how they were employed on the ground. The "C" incline at Bonc Coedan, Oakeley. I somehow doubt that the Old Robey at Llechwedd has been recorded by anyone to the extent that I was able to work on the C Incline at Gloddfa Ganol. (Thanks Wil!)


Grahami

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More to the point perhaps - here is the original trolley loco in use on floor 7 at Llechwedd. Note the long buffres mentioned in an earlier post.
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Grahami

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The winder drawing is quite spectacular!

Forgive the novice question, but did the main axle operate in a single direction or was it reversible? (there seems to be reference to a reversing switch in the third drawing in the previous post)

The clutches presumably engage and disengage the drums and thus a wagon could be paused or collected from an intermediary floor, but at some point a wagon which has been lowered to the bottom of the incline will need to be brought back up again - and this presumably would require the drum to be operated in the opposite direction.

Were the drum able to rotate the opposite direction to the axle, then it would be possible for that wagon to be lifted up without having to change the motor's direction, which would otherwise be a bit tricky as everything going up at time would be sent back down again and vice versa.

I've probably overlooked something simple here... :)


EDIT: unless, of course, you only lower truck down the incline in 'free-wheeling' mode and just use the brake!

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The winder drawing is quite spectacular!

Forgive the novice question, but did the main axle operate in a single direction or was it reversible? (there seems to be reference to a reversing switch in the third drawing in the previous post)

The clutches presumably engage and disengage the drums and thus a wagon could be paused or collected from an intermediary floor, but at some point a wagon which has been lowered to the bottom of the incline will need to be brought back up again - and this presumably would require the drum to be operated in the opposite direction.

Were the drum able to rotate the opposite direction to the axle, then it would be possible for that wagon to be lifted up without having to change the motor's direction, which would otherwise be a bit tricky as everything going up at time would be sent back down again and vice versa.

I've probably overlooked something simple here... :)


EDIT: unless, of course, you only lower truck down the incline in 'free-wheeling' mode and just use the brake!

You've answered your own question. Power was used for uphauling, but gravity was used for return. The C Incline was mainly used to haul from DE, but there was a landing on C floor itself (it had two tracks connecting to it). The motor was "permanently" connected to the drum axle, but the drums were loose on the axle so could rotate in either direction - one way under drive the other under gravity.

The provision of the reversing switch could not be understood by the quarry company, their engineer complaining that there was no need for it, there only being one incline (the K Trwnc) which actually used power in either direction.

I've got a fuller description of operation if anyone wants to read it......

Grahami

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Here's the description of how power inclines worked (steam and electric, not water balance or gravity - but you can have that as well if you want to...)

Grahami
http://www.aditnow.co.uk/documents/Oakeley-Slate-Mine/POWER-INCLINES-at-Oakeley.pdf 

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Back on topic - there are some fascinating photos of Eclipse and The Coalition at work in Gordon & Ann Hatherill's "SLate Quarry Album" as well as lots of photos of Maenofferen and other quarries.

Unfortunately both it and it's companion "Narrow Gauge and Industrial Album" are rare - and expensive. Beautifully produced mind you, but only a small print run. (No, I had nothing to do with either of them, though I do get a mention in in the "Suggested Further Reading" :)

Grahami

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Roy C Link is working on publishing a larger, totally revised, edition of Slate Quarry Album. It will contain much more coverage of other ares than the first (excellent) edition. He is hoping to publish it towards the end of this year.

picture of the eclipse may 2006
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Thorpey

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Since that photo it has continued to deteriorate! Although the exterior was repainted shortly after that photo was taken, only the easily accessible surfaces were covered. It is now a case of it rotting and crumbling from the inside outwards.

even when i took this photo the wooden sheet in the cab back was badly rotting and corroding the steel. also alot of the controls and equipment where smashed or rotting.
Thorpey

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