spitfire
13 years ago
The engine at Levant is a different story altogether. For a start it is a far smaller engine and bears no relation at all to which is required at Crofty. Also it is situated on a major tourist route, if this engine was situated two or three miles inland I doubt very much if it would be working today. We must not forget that the Goonvean & Rostowrack engine is now lying in pieces outside its engine house And Imyris do not encourage visitors to Parkandillack.
The Levant engine was restored over many years under the supervision of Milton Thomas and the greasey gang funded by the N.T. The running costs of this engine is now causing concern with the rising cost of fuel and this would be a flea bite compared to a 80" engine
spitfire
agricola
13 years ago
To get an idea of the cost of running a large engine just ask the guys at KEW. I remember one telling me regarding costs but due to age I can't remember how much. Anyway they don't run their 90" very often because of the costs.
If it can't be grown it has to be mined.
Dolcoathguy
13 years ago
Probably about the same as a Outdoor adventure playground consultant gets in a week... :curse:
Is it safe to come out of the bunker yet?
spitfire
13 years ago
Some idea of what needs to be spent can be gleaned from this, and this doesn't include running cost. About twenty years ago inquiries were made respecting the removal of the Goonvean engine and its house to another site. Bear in mind this only refers to the removal of the engine and not the rebuild cost, but it does include the removal and rebuild of the engine house. That cost all those years ago would have been £953,000 These costs were obtained from two firms the difference between them being only about £1,750. So, at todays prices we would be talking millions, those are the hard facts
spitfire
RRX
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13 years ago
Dont forget the N.T are were planning to get Taylors engine moving again and when i last spoke to one of the chaps in the enginehouse there it was still being discussed as they had raised a fair old wedge of money. Would be great to have 2 working beam engines under steam but i would guess they would probably look at using compressed air and electric assist like they already do with the whim in pool
www.carbisbaycrew.co.uk Cornwall's Underground Site
derrickman
13 years ago
looking at the scope and scale of the fund-raising needed to carry out major restoration of long-derelict railway locomotives, I'd suspect that the the chances of a major engine being restored to steam-worthy condition at this stage, were nil.
''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change .... oh, I don't know, I've still got a lamp like that.
Trewillan
13 years ago
Good point Derrickman.

OK doing a restoration, but what about the money for ongoing maintenance? That's the bit that gets overlooked.
Dolcoathguy
13 years ago
Quote:

looking at the scope and scale of the fund-raising needed to carry out major restoration of long-derelict railway locomotives, I'd suspect that the the chances of a major engine being restored to steam-worthy condition at this stage, were nil.



I suspect you are right if we rely on the Heartlands project people, but if any other individual or organisation wanted to raise money for this sort of thing, I would certainly chip in, it may take a while, but if you don't try it will never happen.
(Not sure if you can donate via the NT specifically for East Pool, but guess you can..)
Is it safe to come out of the bunker yet?
derrickman
13 years ago
look at the websites for the various new-build steam locomotive projects. You need primary members with serious money, people like Pete Waterman, and you need hundreds of members paying not insignificant sums for a decade, and then you need tax concessions which are increasingly under pressure.

THEN you have the technical issues like casting and forging very large items which we simply no longer have the ability to do.

Engines like the Kew one survive precisely because they were kept in complete condition, and in some semblance of working order, for decades after there was any real commercial reason for doing so, and this doesn't apply to mine engines. Previous comments about the horizontal winder at Crofty illustrate this; it remained in use because it continued to be useful. I don't doubt that it would have been scrapped if it had suffered a major mechanical failure.

Robinsons' engine has had many decades of plain neglect from an owner who had no useful reason to maintain it; it would have been scrapped long ago if it wasn't in such a difficult location.

I last saw it in the mid-1970s when it had stood unused and uncared-for, for twenty years, having last steamed in 1955. It has stood for three times that period, by now.

There is also the basic problem of the nature and attitudes of so many of the people in the "heritage industry" ( stops briefly to wash out mouth with soap ). These people have no idea whatsoever of the actual nature and function of the relics which form their raison-d'etre. Who is more "authentic"; a student on a "soft" degree wandering around in a polyester "miner's costume" or making batches of candles with schoolkids in a preserved Victorian school-house, or a self-employed tipper driver contracted to ARC, eating a bacon sandwich and reading The Sun in his cab, in a layby off the A515?

''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change .... oh, I don't know, I've still got a lamp like that.
Dolcoathguy
13 years ago
Yes the Heritage crowd in this case seem to have vastly underestimated the task in this case and agreed it can take large sums of money (Is Prince Charles and or the Duchy reading this forum?).

Rather than debate what the costs actually are and feasibility of the restoration, maybe I should email Heartlands and ask if they have a full engineering report detailing what is required to get the engine working and what the associated costs would be. Comments made by them in July that someone will try to get the engine working I hope would be based on some solid facts not just political spin to get people to go there.

But we in Camborne have built a replica of Trevithick's machine, so a fully working Engine house under steam, whether Heartlands or East Pool ( a better bet) should be next on the list!
Is it safe to come out of the bunker yet?
agricola
13 years ago
When I spoke to some at Kew in 2009, they said that a visit to Robs had been made in regard to restoring the engine. Considering the sums of money that have been spent by Kew on the restoration of their 90" Grand Junction engine, it is going to cost a considerable sum of money. I would think that Robs would be easier to do considering that it has been preserved (?) in grease, on the outside, but you do wonder what the condition of the inside of everything is.

It would be only worth steaming the engines if they could actually pump water 😮
If it can't be grown it has to be mined.
derrickman
13 years ago
I'd love to see a Cornish pump actually pumping water, does any pitwork survive in any usable or restorable condition? THAT would be a preserved engine worth seeing, say 20m of stairs down a shaft collar, or along an adit to a pump working in a sump?

Dream on.... :zzz:
''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change .... oh, I don't know, I've still got a lamp like that.
spitfire
13 years ago
What Derrickman said about the likes of Pete Waterman and others is more or less hitting the nail on the head. What hasn't been made clear (and I'm not knocking these people) is the fact that they do not just put money into a project, they do it because they see (hopefully) a return on their investment a locomotive can go straight into revenue earning service.
Now we return to the beam engines. Taylor's for instance, as at Robinson's has rotten spring beams, so bad that the public are no longer allowed out onto the bob plat. At Crofty this problem is compounded because of the existing head-frame, that would mean the roof of the engine house would have to be removed to lift the beam.
I know they have been talking about Taylor's for years, but that's all. The visitor numbers just do not stack up. I have been to Taylor's in mid July and have been the only one on site!
A feasibility study on the cost would only mean one thing, some bod in a white boiler suite giving a price that would be totally inadequate by the time the money is raised.
There is no-one that would be more pleased than I to see these engines in steam again as I was in Robinson's engine house in the last weeks of working and at Taylor's and Greensplat. But with the state of the country and the need for money to keep going what is already running I'm afraid it will remain a pipe dream.
spitfire
stuey
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13 years ago
Don't you think the RDA's and the EU have a seemingly bottomless pit of money to hose around as they see fit?

Looking at things like the Hallenbeagle industrial estate and half of the other non-midas-housing projects, they seem to be poorly thought out at best (from an economic point of view) and downright irrelevant at worst. However, if as a by product, they manage to preserve/enhance some of our heritage then some of the money will have been well spent.

I thought half the point of the social sector was to enhance the community without the need to turn profit, hence the charitable activities/poaching money from people in massive, cost heavy activities disguised as charities, etc.

I don't think you'd ever see a pumping engine under steam. Just like the tourists wouldn't pop in to have a look at Pool Market. Despite what the big signs say, Pool is still a ghetto to be avoided as far as most people are concerned. I imagine the RDA spods and bloody nose woman are just using it as a feel-good project as well as an excuse to hose money over themselves and their in-crowd chums.

Cynical, moi?

The closest thing I have seen to half decent pitwork is at Killifreth. I think the pitwork in Robinsons has been removed above adit. (Does the balance box pit survive?).

I wondered if it would be possible via dams and things to utilise diverted adit water to operate the engine via pump rods from a cistern/valve arrangement. Clearly, this would need to have permission from Crofty (when they would be pumping - which we will assume will happen at some point) to throw the used water down the shaft into their workings.

Although, I'm sure the RDA (or whatever they are now calling themselves) could chuck them some of their behind-the-settee change to chip in for pumping!

NB:- I am of course referring to the very extensive shallow and deep adit system in the area, not Dolcoath adit!
Trewillan
13 years ago
"stuey" wrote:

Don't you think the RDA's and the EU have a seemingly bottomless pit of money to hose around as they see fit?



No I don't think they have a bottomless pit of money, they have budgets. And they have policies for spending their budgets.

As for preserving and enhancing heritage, Kerrier set the precendent a long time ago - Old CSM (Tesco), Holmans (Tesco), SWEB/Tramway Depot and Offices (McDonalds), etc, etc.
RRX
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13 years ago
"derrickman" wrote:

I'd love to see a Cornish pump actually pumping water, does any pitwork survive in any usable or restorable condition? THAT would be a preserved engine worth seeing, say 20m of stairs down a shaft collar, or along an adit to a pump working in a sump?

Dream on.... :zzz:



Crofton engines are still pumping water, infact they got called on not that long ago to keep the canal level up when the electric pump failed, pretty much 24 hour steaming for a few days.

I doubt they would be allowed by the EA to do anything with pumping any water unless it was a closed system
I will reserve full judgement untill i have visited the site, but sites like KEM and Levant/Geevor are much better at showing what a mining site actually looked like and not just an "Artists Impression"
www.carbisbaycrew.co.uk Cornwall's Underground Site
spitfire
13 years ago
"Trewillan" wrote:

"stuey" wrote:

Don't you think the RDA's and the EU have a seemingly bottomless pit of money to hose around as they see fit?



No I don't think they have a bottomless pit of money, they have budgets. And they have policies for spending their budgets.

As for preserving and enhancing heritage, Kerrier set the precendent a long time ago - Old CSM (Tesco), Holmans (Tesco), SWEB/Tramway Depot and Offices (McDonalds), etc, etc.



That's the best one yet :thumbup:
spitfire
derrickman
13 years ago
the key problem with any organisation like the RDA is that they primarily exist in order to perpetuate themselves at public expense; they produce nothing and never will.

There is a lot of controversy about the Festiniog and its various manifestations, the fact that it is primarily a tourist railway using modified old stock, dah de dah. I'm a great admirer of the FR / WHR, they have gone out and done something pretty big and if it isn't to the liking of some, well feel free, do it your way of you can.

FR / WHR have always shunned the "Heritage industry" money-guzzlers and it works for them.
''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change .... oh, I don't know, I've still got a lamp like that.
stuey
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13 years ago
What continually irritates me is that the RDAs and other unelected, unaccountable quangos have access to a budget at all.

We pay our taxes so that civilisation may be facilitated. This includes things like local art (irritatingly) and preservation of important historical "stuff".

The amount of money being hosed around on people by a pyramid which is too tall and contains too many people at the top being paid too much.

I don't have a problem with people getting rich, but people getting rich on the back of others taxes and people getting rich on money which is "supposed" to be donated to charity really grinds my gears.

A while ago, and bafflingly it has now been removed, it was possible to see the who's who of the RDA and the list was interesting to say the least. "Fingers in pies" is a phrase which springs to mind.

It appears to me that the RDA is a totally undemocratic organisation which is largely unwanted, who obtains money from a bigger organisation we pay £45m day to, so that they may hose money around on grand projects (and themselves). In turn these people sit around a table and cut some great plan up and then if anyone stands in the way of it, steamroller over them. I've heard firsthand of some of the attempts to get people with business interests out, so that some superduper project may roll..... probably a load more of Mr M**** homes and irritatingly, probably having to restore some stuff (badly) as a part of that.

I am a big fan of people being free to enjoy the profits of their work, not have their money stolen by tax, given to an unelected organisation who in turn then go about throwing CEO amounts of money around on each other, including consultants who haven't got a f&^%ing clue producing some ill concieved ******* project.

As far as I can see it is like so much government stuff.

Work>>>Tax (theft)>>>Pointless Crap

I totally dread to think what a monumental cock up will be made of the NCK site at some point. Goodbye cage guides in the headgear and an absolute f-load of bloody midas lego boxes.

It's not development, it's self-investment by an in-crowd and the result is among some positives (historical artifacts having their decay halted/reversed) that a load of poor quality buildings which will look truly shyte in a few years pepper the area.

It will be a tad more difficult to regenerate when the whole thing is owned by various privateers in due course and has turned into a Polish/Smack village.

(I do apologise to anyone who's feelings I've hurt) 😉
Dolcoathguy
13 years ago
Quote:

I totally dread to think what a monumental cock up will be made of the NCK site at some point. Goodbye cage guides in the headgear and an absolute f-load of bloody midas lego boxes.



They've already set the precedent with the plans for the new link road, whatever little remains there are of the Tin streaming and The North East part of Dolcoath will be further obliterated, but be assured they have paid lots of people lots of money to shift the small pond a few metres to the left and create a new "wildlife" habitat - rather than re route the road slightly! Who cares what the Town council and local people think :curse:
Is it safe to come out of the bunker yet?

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