carnkie
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17 years ago
I'm no geologist so is this rare photo by RM secondary copper mineralization?

๐Ÿ”—Tresavean-Tin-Mine-Archive-Album-Image-002[linkphoto]Tresavean-Tin-Mine-Archive-Album-Image-002[/linkphoto][/link]


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Roy Morton
17 years ago
'fraid the picture isn't me (RM) the mineral deposit is secondary copper, and in places is the carbonate Azurite (blue) and Malachite (green) The majority though is the silicate Chrysocolla. most of which was the consistency of Blancmange. ๐Ÿ™‚
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carnkie
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17 years ago
It gives that impression. I asked because it looks a tad similar to secondary deposits at the Kenneggy Mine (part of Wheal Speed).

๐Ÿ”—Personal-Album-272-Image-063[linkphoto]Personal-Album-272-Image-063[/linkphoto][/link]
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carnkie
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17 years ago
"Stephen" wrote:

Hope this is not too technical!



What on earth gave you that idea ๐Ÿ˜‰ Thanks for the info. :thumbup:
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sparty_lea
17 years ago
:lol:
Hi Stephen
Just read your paper on Tankardstown, very interesting. Off over there for a look in the summer.

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Those that understand binary and those that do not!
carnkie
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17 years ago
"Stephen" wrote:

Glad you understood it Carnkie. Analyses were by inductively coupled plasma optical emission spectroscopy and ion chromatography, backed up by fourier transform infra-red spectrophotometry, X-ray powder diffraction and classical gravimetric methods. I also studied the water vapour sorption isotherms to gather data on the internal porosity of the material and found it to be a mixed micro/meso porous material. By careful calculation of the stoichiometries I was able to prove that some of the copper is unaccounted for by the analysed anions and so must be bound to the silica surface which is consistent with literature data on the coagulation of silica sols by the Cu(II) cation. I'll not go into detail though.



Much appreciated Stephen. The rough outline will suffice for the moment :lol:
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AR
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17 years ago
"Stephen" wrote:

Azurite is blue, and requires too high a concentration of carbon dioxide to form in old mines.



I've seen what I would swear was Azurite in conjunction with Malachite in Ecton mine (alongside the ladderway from the sough level to Salt's level), and it seemed to be a post-exposure secondary formed out of Chalcopyrite although that's not a professional opinion! I'm curious as to your comment about Azurite requiring a high concentration of CO2, as I always thought its formation was down to the amount of water absorbed during the crystallisation process. Can you elaborate a bit?

Cheers,
Adam
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carnkie
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17 years ago
"Stephen" wrote:

Azurite only forms at much higher CO2 concentrations (CO2 dissolves in water and generates HCO3). When in contact with normal air water cannot dissolve enough CO2 to get the HCO3 concentration high enough for azurite. You need very high concentrations, which you will not get in a ventilated mine but may get within the natural, confiined cracks and pockets in the orebody, especially if in a carbonate-rich environment (eg. limestone).
quote]

Iโ€™m curious as to what you consider a ventilated mine Stephen. Many Cornish mines were extremely poorly ventilated. This from the PP 1864 โ€˜On the conditions of all minersโ€™.
There can be no doubt that the air of the mines, especially in the deeper workings, and at considerable distance from the shafts, becomes extremely impure from the very imperfect ventilation, the deteriorating influence of the respiration of the men at work, and the combustion of the endless candles which they burn. The cause seems indeed to be the most important in determining the unhealthy conditions of the miners. The ventilation generally becomes more difficult and defective with the increasing depth of the mines, and the state of the miners is therefore found most unsatisfactory in the districts where the mines have attained the greatest depth. The ventilation is, however, most seriously interfered with by the distance of the levels from a shaft, and several of the men complained much of the character of the air they had breathed in workings which were very near the surface,
Ergo; in many areas of the mines ventilation was virtually non-existent.


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stuey
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17 years ago
Surely, you're missing out one important idea.....

The clay/copper minerals are simply washed out and deposited from being in situ. The dark blue stuff is Copper (II) sulphate and the greeny stuff is Copper (II) carbonate. It is almost irrelevant which of these minerals were the source, nevertheless they contained the above. I'm not sure about the clay constituent, but I smelted about 2Kg of the stuff and ended up with about 20g of product.

I like the approach of looking at it with analytical gear (I myself used to be an inorganic chemist specialising in Cu (I) Chemistry), but it seems overly complicated. You have a secondary enrichment, it gets leached, it gets deposited. You will notice that a fair few of the species are insoluble in water (in normal conditions) and so it has to be the way.

My observation is that the Sulphate sometimes forms small crystals, but the carbonate never seems to (visible), I think this is hindered by the clay and the lack of structure gives the whole thing no integrity, hence toothpaste consistency.

Well done for the input though and I'll have a read of that paper in greater detail and see what I think later. I'm no minerologist though, but the chemistry stuff should be comprehendible.....

Stu
stuey
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17 years ago
My first guess would be that it's something similar to the angle of repose but having stuck my finger in numerous deposits, it can't be that as the consistency is different.

I reckon it's the same sort of thing that causes patterns in the water flowing down roads. You get a discreet pattern of standing waves which influence what is worn down underneath. I don't want to get into fluid flow in great detail as I have scratched the surface enough of it to know that the true answer is mind bogglingly complex.

I wonder if it's to do with the viscosity of water. Perhaps the drop catches a drop in front and then accellerates, leaving some of the drop behind to deposit a load (slower flow) it catches up with a drop in front (slowed down one) and then accellerates again. We've all seen the water pulsing down these formations on heavy flow days but my bet is that it's a positive feedback mechanism which causes water to eddy in a specific way which leaves the "cups". I would also bet that if you looked at it, time lapse style, the cups would migrate downwards.

I expect that what forms the cups is to do with drips catching up other drips (the surface effect is similar) and then as the flow speeds up, eddies are set up in the water which compounds the surface pattern.

Any more than that and I am out of my depth.

interesting about your mineralisation thoughts, I'll look out for that when I see them next......

I'm bloody sure the primary source is not a sulphide....pretty damn so. Without having a paper-think.

My thing was Cu(I) organometallics which were all white and very boring. Made some great egg smells though :)

That's when I discovered that H2S can remove your sense of smell!!!! I got mine back after about 2 months of not handling the stuff.
AR
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17 years ago
"Stephen" wrote:

Hi Adam. It's all down to hydrogen carbonate ion (HCO3 one minus charge - can't do sub and superscripts here) activity, pH and stability fields. Malachite is easily formed under commonly encountered conditions, so you find it almost anywhere there's copper and not too much acid. Azurite only forms at much higher CO2 concentrations (CO2 dissolves in water and generates HCO3). When in contact with normal air water cannot dissolve enough CO2 to get the HCO3 concentration high enough for azurite. You need very high concentrations, which you will not get in a ventilated mine but may get within the natural, confiined cracks and pockets in the orebody, especially if in a carbonate-rich environment (eg. limestone).
The most interesting environments for post-mining copper minerals are pyrite-poor deposits in siliceous rocks. In limestone there's too much carbonate and only malachite forms. If too much pyrite (like at Avoca and Anglesey) it is too acidic so you only get transient sulphates like chalcanthite and maybe antlerite, plus metallic copper replacing the iron rails (great examples of this in 850 level, Avoca). In quartz-chalcopyrite veins, with little or no pyrite (eg. Coniston, and many Irish and Cornish mines) the balance is just right for a range of minerals. Malachite, langite, brochantite and the soft squishy blue & green silica gels (which are not true minerals) are the usual ones. Rarely devilline, and if near the sea (source of chloride) atacamite and connellite.
Langite is a greenish blue, and may be mistaken for azurite, but azurite is a deeper, purer blue and fizzes in acid. Langite does not fizz in acid. As langite is quite a common crystalline encrustation on copper mine walls I wonder if that was what you found?



Thanks for that Stephen - I've referred to what I've seen in the Ecton mines as Malachite/Azurite as that's what all the articles I've seen on the geology of Ecton hill say most of the secondary mineralisation is (Ecton hill is seriously folded limestone with occasional clay wayboards, in case you're not familiar with it). I'll dig them out and have another look, I think Langite and Brochantite may be listed as rarities amongst the Ecton secondary minerals- I do know that Aurichalcite and Linarite are present in small amounts, especially at the southern end where lead and zinc are present in significant amounts.
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carnkie
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17 years ago
Purely out of interest the following is a sample of azurite from South Caradon Mine, Liskeard. There are many samples found in the Caradon mines. This one is in the Truro Museum.

[img]http://www.aditnow.co.uk/showimage?f=/community/Personal-Album-272-Image-066/[/img]


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BASum
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10 years ago
I realise this thread has been obsolete for a fair few years now, but what you were saying about kenneggy has really interested me. Where abouts in wheal speed is that sort of copper staining? I've been exploring the speed deep adit and the speedwell shallow adit, but am yet to find anything major. Any info you have on the area both geographical and historical would be amazing! ๐Ÿ™‚
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John Mason
10 years ago
I missed this thread completely!

I think Stephen has it about right - I've been crawling around in holes in the ground for years and have never seen post-mining azurite in all that time. In some cases these copper-stains contain langite and brochantite, both non-equilibrium sulphate-based minerals. Generally though they are gels that once dried out disintegrate into a flaky mess.

In almost all instances, azurite in Wales (at least) occurs in more evolved mineral assemblages that formed well before the miners exposed them, and carbonate wallrocks are required - be they limestone or carbonatised basic igneous rocks such as those present in e.g. Coed y Brenin, near Dolgellau. Malachite is stable over a wider pH range, so is far more widespread.
Tony Blair
10 years ago
The adits (keneggy) are interesting and going in them and understanding what is where is something I have been doing on and off for several years. I do a lot of discussion of these type things on a popular social networking site, purely because there may be landowners getting worried about people in their mines.

There is a leat to a level which feeds into a huge waterwheel chamber, which you've probably seen. I think this is probably engine shaft of Speedwell Mine (didn't take a compass and it's windy in there).

Wheel Speed adit is an interesting one, because the old maps don't make much of a fuss about it. The section shows there are 2 very extensive lodes.... Then there is the major show in the area St Aubyn and Grylls. This runs more NE/SW than the other E-ish/W-ish lodes in the are and is VERY EXTENSIVE. I haven't got into this bit yet, but it's very interesting.

Speedwell Mine runs up the valley, (look at an old map) past Orchard Shaft and then there are a few oddly placed wells (probably adit shafts) this runs into Wheal Georgia, Florence, Old Boxer, Great Western, and Wheal Grylls. This is a massive network of lodes and stopes, the biggest being Fisher's Lode on which the shaft opened up by the side of the road.

It's also possible that Wheal Chiverton connects into that lot, as the adit is shown going off the top of the plan towards Wheal Florence. From what I remember, the "Grylls" plans show "adit to sea" sort of SE of the boot sale field.

2 shafts were capped in the Great Western patch. There is also a fenced off collapse up there (slightly north of where I think the lode outcrop is) and anything else marked as shaft is a rubbish crater. It seems quite an area to go chucking rubbish down shafts. Anything open in Rosudgeon would get my instant attention. They capped that shaft by the side of the road so quickly, by the time I rolled up with my gear in the evening, it was a nice concrete plug. Bloody shame.

Back to Copper Stains. I think Wheal Speed main lode has quite a variety of dark greens and blues. Nothing amazing, but I gather the majority of it is silica. I saw a piece last week which had malachite balls forming on it.
John Lawson
10 years ago
Stephen, put a lot of research into his findings, and I think, had a paper published on his work.

Azurite, as mentioned, previously is quite rare, and in some places, tip specimens, as at Wanlockhead are really Llnarite, which even forms in cavities in the lead smelting waste down at Meadowfoot.
It was much easier to find in the slag before, the local authority tipped some spare, road tar ontop of the tip edges.
BASum
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10 years ago
@Tony blair, Wow you really know the area! I was going to hop up to the cornwall records library next week to do some research... Can I PM you? Would be great to share some info ๐Ÿ™‚
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Roy Morton
10 years ago
Just a question; if minute strings of native copper are present in the joints, would it be logical to expect a different set of secondary minerals, rather than the usual sulphate derived forms?

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John Mason
10 years ago
Roy - in one example I looked at there was native Cu, crystallised cuprite and connellite along joints in the wallrock, brochantite and malachite closer to the adit wall and langite plus things that dessicate into mineralogical dandruff on the wall itself, and this was all clearly a post-mining assemblage. The whole sequence was through less than a foot of rock though.
BASum
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10 years ago
Roy, to have the presence of elemental copper, any oxides or other forms found in ore must've been reduced by some other chemical present. I'm the foggiest on what that couldve been, but I think the chemistry of that might be right... Correct me if I'm wrong ๐Ÿ™‚
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