spitfire
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16 years ago
This message written by the flame of a carbide lamp was found in the tunnel leading from the dry at Levant to the Man Engine shaft, it reads:

20 Oct 1919 31 men died in this shaft when the Man Engine broke.

t has since been removed by the NT.

Second picture shews the tunnel from Man Engine shaft to the dry

🔗Personal-Album-1228-Image-34249[linkphoto]Personal-Album-1228-Image-34249[/linkphoto][/link]

🔗Personal-Album-1228-Image-34250[linkphoto]Personal-Album-1228-Image-34250[/linkphoto][/link]
spitfire
Tezarchaeon
16 years ago
Why was it removed? Seems like a pretty historically significant bit of graffiti to me. The fact it was done with an old carbide lamp makes it seem like it was very personal, from miner to miner so to speak.
spitfire
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16 years ago
I couldn't agree with you more. The workings of the NT are a mystery to me!
spitfire
Tezarchaeon
16 years ago
It probably wasn't plaque like enough for them, if it isnt brass and engraved then it isn't pretty enough for tourists!

I like the blunt nature of it, no thrills, just the straight forward gritty fact.
spitfire
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16 years ago
Well said
spitfire
justin
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16 years ago
baffles me i thought their remit was preservation of heratage

what next sand blasting cave paintings because they are not pc ..... images of prehistoric animal slaughter offending veggies and scaring kids..

i just don't see the logic behind the removal of the soot message.....If that isn't historically significant what is....
begining to think their just interested in the bricks and mortar
😠 😠 😠

carnkie
16 years ago
And me. Correct me if I'm wrong but apart from the appalling tragedy and the personal impact of the message didn't this make it impossible to continue working the deep part of the mine? It's importance can't be underestimated from many points of view.
The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.
spitfire
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16 years ago
Yes the mine was abandoned in the deeper levels as the men had to return to ladder climbing to get to their work. Even so they still worked to a depth of 190 fathoms entering the mine by way of the adit. Levant struggled on for another eleven years closing in the slump of 1930
spitfire
derrickman
16 years ago
so.... when was this found? Why are the NT involved in an underground section of Levant? Is it open to the public?

is it in fact known when it was actually made? I have a carbide lamp like that, I could have done that last week.

I would tend to agree that it is poor taste to remove an inscription like that, but unless it is of known historical provenance ( rather than a modern reference which could be remarked again tomorrow ), I don't really see it's an issue


''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change .... oh, I don't know, I've still got a lamp like that.
Tezarchaeon
16 years ago
I don't think it should have been removed even if it was the case that it was very recent. I doubt it was recent though.

As far as I know access wasn't possible in there for many years.
Peter Burgess
16 years ago
Don't let whoever did this inscription removal loose at Pompeii - they'd have field day removing all the 1st century casual scribblings. It might have been an over-zealous contractor, not necessarily an NT employee / volunteer.

spitfire
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16 years ago
I can assure you, it was not a contractor
spitfire
carnkie
16 years ago
In your opinion if they had been able to sink the new shaft that was discussed at the time would it have made an significant difference to the history of the mine?
The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.
spitfire
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16 years ago
I'm not sure that I'm qualified to answer that but it has to be a cautious yes and also that of Geevor were the two mines to merge.
We must not forget another danger with Levant and that is the dangerous 40 backs. Had that given way while the mine was at work then loss of life would have been ten fold of the Man Engine disaster
spitfire
spitfire
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16 years ago
I missed Derrickmans comments on this, who does not think it's an issue
Some time ago I raised concern about graffiti at Dinorwig and asked if it could be removed as I thought it disfigured the building it was in.
However the consensus was that it should remain and although I did not agree I accepted that, as most of the comments came from local people.
The same thing applies to Levant.
I don't know when it was written but I do know it was long before the NT took over the site.
It may not be an issue with Derrickman but it is with people who had relations killed in that accident, I had a great uncle injured on the engine when it broke.
So before you dismiss it as not an issue have a thought for locals who think it is
spitfire
derrickman
16 years ago
I don't know the whole background here - how is it that the NT come to be involved in part of Levant workings?

which contractors are you referring to?

my overall view would be that a historic graffito should certainly be kept. If this is reasonably thought to be such, and from your later post I take this to be the case, then it should certainly be preserved, if it is an area accessible to the public it should be protected as best can be done.

If it was done recently by a mine explorer like me or thee, that's a different matter. However, if it's in an area not open to the public, the NT should find something a bit more useful to do with their time, I think.

That said, I've been in the heavy engineering disciplines too lon to be sentimental about such things. One of my contemporaries at CSM was asphyxiated in Wheal Jane, while engaged in ( unauthorised ) mineral collecting in an end outwith the ventilation flow. A young graduate and a school leaver were similarly asphyxiated on a tunnel job I was working on in North London in the 80s.

they have no memorial as such, and I think that's right.. but what I do have is the self-rescuer I have on my belt when I go below, and the MSA drills. I didn't used to have those. I was involved in a tunnel evacuation due to gas in Sheffield a few years ago, and that would not have happened 20 years before, it would probably have been a multiple fatality.

I would feel that the real memorial to the many, many miners killed over the years is the men walking around because of the improved practices and equipment that followed because of them.

you might feel that it shouldn't take that kind of thing to get safety, and I wouldn't disagree, but a lot ofthe time I'm afraid it does




''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change .... oh, I don't know, I've still got a lamp like that.
AR
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16 years ago
"derrickman" wrote:

my overall view would be that a historic graffito should certainly be kept. If this is reasonably thought to be such, and from your later post I take this to be the case, then it should certainly be preserved, if it is an area accessible to the public it should be protected as best can be done.

If it was done recently by a mine explorer like me or thee, that's a different matter. However, if it's in an area not open to the public, the NT should find something a bit more useful to do with their time, I think.



I agree - even if it wasn't done straight after the disaster, it shows that at some point someone thought the memory needed to be kept alive, and the passage of time made it part of the mine fabric. Even what was vandalism at the time can become historic, the 1970s graffiti in Cumberland Cavern is now argued to be as much a part of its history as the victorian visitor's graffiti - both are a record of usage of the place for different things at different times in its history.

Not that I in any way support modern explorers adding graffiti, we don't need to leave a record of our passing for future generations, they can have our photos (if we're not back to living in caves by then.....)
Follow the horses, Johnny my laddie, follow the horses canny lad-oh!
ICLOK
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16 years ago
I was initially annoyed by this Grafitti at Devon united but stood there in the overgrown remains I came away liking it as I thought it captured a mood.. I can't say its vandalism as it seems well penned and well meant
🔗Devon-United-Mixed-Mine-2-User-Album-Image-004[linkphoto]Devon-United-Mixed-Mine-2-User-Album-Image-004[/linkphoto][/link]

🔗Devon-United-Mixed-Mine-2-Archive-Album-Image-34323[linkphoto]Devon-United-Mixed-Mine-2-Archive-Album-Image-34323[/linkphoto][/link]
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh Creeper!!!!!
carnkie
16 years ago
This topic reminded me of this. Even if access was still possible it would be criminal to erase it.

The last message left by 47 entombed miners in Argonaut [gold] Mine, Jackson, Calif. Written with carbide lamps on the face of the 4350 foot drift.


🔗Argonaut-Gold-Mine-Archive-Album-Image-001[linkphoto]Argonaut-Gold-Mine-Archive-Album-Image-001[/linkphoto][/link]
The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there.
Peter Burgess
16 years ago
This discussion seems to have ended up in North West England for some reason....

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