Chuck
  • Chuck
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17 years ago
Well done Bograt for putting the record straight on schoolboys in Alderley Edge Pits! Westmine and Deepit (probably both same person and same person as seller of dodgy checks) don't half have an active mind on recounting "stories" to back up their claims. As they say Bull Muck baffles Brains. Westmine still does not comment on same type face hand stamping on checks zeons of years apart and from different ends of the County and does not condemn the practice of selling fake checks.
westmine
17 years ago
Alderley edge mines Cheshire

West mine... an atemp was made to close this mine in 1955
by building a concreat / brick wall, but a couple of sticks
of Gelignite opend it up, the mine was walled up in 1959
the opencast was filled in 1960

Enginvein mine....in 1957 the army tried blow up the entrance
but only made in bigger

Wood mine....The main adit was blown up by the comedian
Derek "Blaster" Bates on the orders of the National Trust
on 8th April 1964 , the next weekend a shaft was dug to open wood mine.The police were not to happy at the time

For more information ...the best book
The Alderley edge Mines by Chris j Carlton

Do a searc in Yahoo... Alderley mines
ICLOK
  • ICLOK
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17 years ago
Hi Chuck, I must admit there seems to be a lot of waffle and no answers..... I was out at weekend and bumped into a mate at a Railway event who is heavily into mine and rail checks (you may even know him as he deals), ... just had to ask him re this issue... he has hundreds of these things and like me is very dubious re these stamped items and filled checks, he agrees entirely with what I said on the stamping and type faces. The numbers were hand stamped in and regularly amended but not locations. The example ones posted by you with the raised letters are perfect and reflect the press and punch method of manufacture hence the sharpness, but the comment re CAD was daft and as an engineer obviously so, he also confirmed that checks having raised letters to prevent forging has a lot of truth to it too. He did say that the checks for going underground sometimes were stamped but would have been machine stamped en mass not by hand or individually and so many extras were made they were highly unlikely to ever need to adapt another let alone from a different colliery!!. And he laughed as nobody has ever heard of a standard issue set of colliery letter stamps..... things like these would have been a local stores aquisition.
He finished by saying that many in the hobby are very annoyed re this as these types of forgeries are intended to target certain sought after coal field gaps... sadly people get excited and buy first without looking at the detail until too late as they are desperate to finish collections. There may be a guy not to far from me lodging a complaint with Ebay so it may all come to head soon anyhow.....It s got a very high profile at the moment as a subject...... :blink:
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh Creeper!!!!!
Chuck
  • Chuck
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17 years ago
Thanks for that Iclock. These fakes certainly want stopping or the existence and identification of them publicised. It ruins a good collecting hobby for most people; and for those with large collections it potentially ruins their years of investment, as if unchecked, the suspicion of all checks and other related collecting items of being fake will ruin the confidence and the market.
There is another issue going on at the moment with potentially very well engineered and nearly exact copies of high value 1800's / early 1900's rare mining lamps. These lamps are in the value range of £500 -£5000 lamps, so are a very good income for an organised ring of 2/3 sellers into the niche market of lamp collectors, whether by private word of mouth sales or e-bay. British oil safety Lamps and British checks are in effect mainly collected in Northern parts of England, Wales and scattered other smaller pockets round this Country and the World, so the impact of this practice spreading is very serious as it affects a "small pond", unlike say militaria where it is diluted in an "ocean" of thousands of collectors world wide.
If anyone has experienced this activity or has suspect lamps, can they let us know, with the telltale signs to look for and area of country where they operate from. Gis a clue - as they say.
ICLOK
  • ICLOK
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17 years ago
My friend was bouncing off the walls on the checks but didn't mention lamps... but I'll ring him tonight as he just found me a nice English Electric Worksplate from the Dick Kerr works at Preston off an industrial loco. I will ask... I collect stuff myself and its hard when something feasible comes up on Ebay and even though you know its not quite right you get tempted as it will complete a part of your collection, trouble is the unscrupulous know it too.

I know its off topic but do know of anyone with knowledge of NCB's Philladelphia loco works.... just bought a huge rebuild plate in bronze from there off a diesel but cant track the works number back... any idea of organisations... sorry its a long shot. Desperate to match the plate to a history... got it first bid for £50 on ebay... its mint in ex loco condition.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh Creeper!!!!!
Heb
  • Heb
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17 years ago
Quote:

There is another issue going on at the moment with potentially very well engineered and nearly exact copies of high value 1800's / early 1900's rare mining lamps



Hi Chuck

Interesting - Do you have any examples of these 'copies' of miners lamps?
Chuck
  • Chuck
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17 years ago
Yes, they are currently be analysed chemically to establish "era" of brass or aluminium composition to fully verify their chemical age!
Examples include Rippon & Crake Stephenson, Howatts No5, Grays No 2, Patterson alloy Donalds and several others.
Also included are examples of lamps with new parts added on or altered to make the lamp appear to be a much rarer model of lamp and therefore more valuable.
There are examples of very major rebuild repairs, but these are acceptable, although they do impact on the value of the lamp.
It makes the mind boggle when you learn of aging techniques used. Caustic Soda on certain types of alloy, Urine on other types, special ageing fluids for brass and alloy (these are normally used on repair jobs to blend in new parts.
And most worrying is that on first examination they look original!! Damn good engineers. But if they were built in 1800's with equipment then, with modern equipment anything is possible.
Keep the points coming in and between us we will either curtail or stop the practice.
Chuck
  • Chuck
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17 years ago
I was taken in to start with on a certain variation of check. There appears to be a new variation now. I am involved in this discussion to highlight the practice of fake items and hopefully to give new and old collectors alike information on how to avoid paying hard earned money for such things. I hope you fully support that also.
Heb
  • Heb
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17 years ago
Quote:

Examples include Rippon & Crake Stephenson, Howatts No5, Grays No 2, Patterson alloy Donalds and several others.
Also included are examples of lamps with new parts added on or altered to make the lamp appear to be a much rarer model of lamp and therefore more valuable.



Are these available on the 'open market'? Can't say i've ever seen any of them - do you have any pictures? I'd really like to see some examples.
Seen a few of those that have been 'modified' to look like different models though!
Chuck
  • Chuck
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17 years ago
Rare lamps are usually private sales. But after gaining my knowledge on these kind of lamps (and my knowledge is no where near comprehensive as yet - lots more to learn with everyones help) I can say that I have seen potential Fakes for sale recently on e-bay. And I could not advise the buyers to scrutinise before concluding purchase, because the sellers quite conveniantly had listed buyers as "private identities". Therefore to expand awareness of the possibility of items being not as they seem, these forums come into their own.
This very extended discussion on these subjects should contribute greatly towards the desired effect of more awareness in the marketplace.
Chuck
  • Chuck
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17 years ago
Very interesting Westmine. I cannot retreive e-bay records from their site as far back as 06. How do you do it? Or are you in fact the seller of the checks? As you must keep these records. As far as feedback is concerned - when people are successfull in what they beleive to be a genuine purchase they are happy until they realise they could have been duped.
If you are in fact the seller Vanoord's rules are quite simple -you should be declaring that and not hiding behind two alias's. And I notice that despite asking you twice to condemn the sale of fake checks, you have ommitted to do so. And whoever bought the checks, it really does not affect the question posed of do people recogise them as being genuine or not. I beleive there are two versions of checks, from this source, that are questionable, Brass shapes with copper numbers soldered on - I think jagman's post of the 5-5-08 on the Linnyshaw forum sums those up quite well. And the recent ones on Vanoords post of the 4-6-08 on this forum- these are summed up quite well by Icloks post on the same day.
I have asked National Mining Memorabilia Association to consider a reference page dedicated to logging questionable checks and lamps as a reference for potential buyers to check against.
Chuck
  • Chuck
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17 years ago
[mod]Just for clarity: AditNow does not - and can not - verify the authenticity of these lamps. It is perhaps a salient thought that the poster has labeled four of the eight as replicas/fakes and two more as suspect.[/mod]

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1. Naylor Park Lane Clanny. New metric bars, brass shields, should be steel. Acceptable if declared.
2. Mills Donalds Wide Guys Shield on left newbuild. On right probably also.
3. Rippon & Crake Stephensons. One on left newbuild. On right suspect.
4. Howatts No 5 newbuild
5- Grays No2. Brass original. Alloy newbuild

These lamps are getting good. Damn good engineers. The silly thing is that if the engineer charged the time it takes to make these at UK industry rates, then they would be almost as expensive as the real thing!!
Heb
  • Heb
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  • Newbie
17 years ago
So where are these lamps originating from? As a collector i'd like to know so I don't get caught out.
I think if you had one in your hand you would find it suspect, but buying from a photo (as on ebay) you could easily make a big mistake!
I'd definitely find the bonnet of the right hand aluminium Mills suspect!
Chuck
  • Chuck
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  • Newbie Topic Starter
17 years ago
Until I get the chemical ageing report, I think i will not confirm the source. However it has been rumoured for a few years about the source.
Until you have been educated in points to look for they are very convincing.
Vanoord
17 years ago
[mod]
I have removed a number of posts from this thread, some of which fall into the category of borderline personal accusations and others of a nature that did not aid the discussion.

As noted in a now-deleted post, I have enabled access to the PM messaging system for some people in case they wish to contact me ‘off forum’ with any concerns they may have.

Again as before, if anyone is selling items on eBay and wish to discuss it on the forum, would they please declare that they are doing so.

I would also be grateful if future discussion was constructive and kept clear of personal accusations otherwise the thread will be locked.[/mod]
Hello again darkness, my old friend...
westmine
17 years ago
Hi Heb

Fake miners lamps

IN the 1970s there started to be sold in
Antique shops mostly in old mining areas
rare miners lamps the origin of
These lamps was India, the lamps had
Been Altered and made to look old, some
Had parts missing but the parts could
Be easily replaced, when the internet
Came along they started to be sold
On the auction sites but mostly offline
The best one I have been offered was
A Davy lamp that had been hand engraved
On the rim on top of the base DAVY PATENT
Sir Humphrey Davy never took out a patent
On his lamp, put into your search engine
Miners lamp India, to see what old miners
Lamps look like get this out of print book
The Protector Lamp and lighting Company
Limited 1873--1973 by Philip Heyes.
🙂
Jimbo
  • Jimbo
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  • Newbie
17 years ago
I think you might be teaching Heb how to suck eggs there my old son :lol: 😉
"PDHMS, WMRG, DCC, Welsh Mines Society, Northern Mines Research Group, Nenthead Mines Society and General Forum Gobshite!"
Chuck
  • Chuck
  • 50.2% (Neutral)
  • Newbie Topic Starter
17 years ago
Hi HEB,
Just in case you don't know, there is the first meeting of the British Lamp Collectors at Pleaseley Colliery Museum this Saturday 14-6-08 10.00-4.00. There are lamps on show and for sale, purchasers of lamps, a lamp identification and valuation pannel. Worth a visit!!
Heb
  • Heb
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  • Newbie
17 years ago
Thanks Chuck, I was aware of the meeting (2nd actually - wasn't number 1, which started it all, last year at Beamish?), unfortunately i'm working. Never mind might make number 3 - hope it all goes well, have fun.

There's not going to be any of those dodgy 'Davy Patents' from India is there? Can just imagine container loads of Clowes & Flip top Stephensons being unloaded at the docks, ready to plunge the lamp collecting world into meltdown.

Seriously, Westmine - are you an MP? After at least 2 pages of discussion (& waffle), still haven't seen you condemn the sale of dodgy pitchecks!!
Chuck
  • Chuck
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  • Newbie Topic Starter
17 years ago
Hi Heb,
The discussion on Dodgy checks started on the Linnyshaw forum. These were on checks that were brass shapes with copper numbers soldered on. The Seller claimed that some of them came from Buille Hill Museum when it closed. I posted a query on this on the NMMA website also. An ex-curator of Buille Hill has replied -"Re the ebay tally seller he really should be reported by as many people as possible.
His story of the origin of his tallies is complete rubbish.
I was the curator of Buille Hill museum for fifteen years and I can state that none of his Manchester area tallies ever existed in that form and certainly were not in the collections at the museum.
His raised number tallies are ridiculous, I am not aware of a colliery anywhere which had such tallies.
Unless ebay users report such activity the advantage takers will carry on producing these tallies and unsuspecting new collectors will fall into the trap. Name and e-mail address supplied on NMMA site.


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