Heb
  • Heb
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15 years ago
Quote:

We got this one:-

🔗



That's also the one I went for - been impressed with it so far.
davel
  • davel
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15 years ago
How often does it need testing/recalibration/replacement of sensors and how much does it cost?

Dave
Mr Mike
15 years ago
There's a o2 gas meter, from BW / Honeywell, £198+VAT, runs for 2 years, new sensor is around £80.00,

http://www.surveyexpress.co.uk/product.asp?strParents=112&CAT_ID=112&P_ID=505 

I often wonder whether you need the multigas meters,O2 is the most important and if that goes down irrespective of whether you have gone into a Co2/ Co pocket you get out anyway...
Mr Mike www.mineexplorer.org.uk
Earth Worm Jim
15 years ago
"Mr Mike" wrote:

There's a o2 gas meter, from BW / Honeywell, £198+VAT, runs for 2 years, new sensor is around £80.00,

http://www.surveyexpress.co.uk/product.asp?strParents=112&CAT_ID=112&P_ID=505 

I often wonder whether you need the multigas meters,O2 is the most important and if that goes down irrespective of whether you have gone into a Co2/ Co pocket you get out anyway...



I've thought about getting a single gas unit but when it comes to exploring it's all about taking only acceptable risks. Only having a small part of the info isn't really that good, it's a lot better than going on blind though. 🙂
rikj
  • rikj
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15 years ago
An old fashioned miner's lamp is very nice to have. I've bought a 4 gas detector as well, but only with some specific locations in mind. Mainly to do with size.

Also, they can be negotiating tools. Having the proper equipment may persuade people to allow access.
Earth Worm Jim
15 years ago
To tell all of you the truth, the main reason I'm going to get and use a gas monitor is because I don't want the people I love to feel sad when I don't come back.

Rope access I've got covered. I've got a hard hat and don't go into areas that are going to hit me really hard on the head.

Peoples are a different matter, you can never account for others stupidity.

P.s. this is not the only high risk hobby I have and as some of you know I've got a big birthday coming up, because I've only taken measured risks.

P.p.s it's not my 18, 21, 25, 30 or 35th.

:) 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
Strangely Brown
15 years ago
"Mr Mike" wrote:

There's a o2 gas meter, from BW / Honeywell, £198+VAT, runs for 2 years, new sensor is around £80.00,

http://www.surveyexpress.co.uk/product.asp?strParents=112&CAT_ID=112&P_ID=505 

I often wonder whether you need the multigas meters,O2 is the most important and if that goes down irrespective of whether you have gone into a Co2/ Co pocket you get out anyway...



Problem with CO is that it combines with the haemoglobin in your red blood cells and prevents the carrying of O2, regardless of O2 levels it can kill, only 800 parts per million could be a fatal dose. Most poisionous gasses i.e. H2S, in normally trace proportions are noxious regardless of O2 level, just higher O2 gives a better chance of survival.

CO2 and other inert (as far as a human body is concerned, I include the flamable methane here) gasses will asphixiate, therefore O2 proportion is more relevant.
Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels, it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it.
Earth Worm Jim
15 years ago
"owaincbrown" wrote:

"Mr Mike" wrote:

There's a o2 gas meter, from BW / Honeywell, £198+VAT, runs for 2 years, new sensor is around £80.00,

http://www.surveyexpress.co.uk/product.asp?strParents=112&CAT_ID=112&P_ID=505 

I often wonder whether you need the multigas meters,O2 is the most important and if that goes down irrespective of whether you have gone into a Co2/ Co pocket you get out anyway...



Problem with CO is that it combines with the haemoglobin in your red blood cells and prevents the carrying of O2, regardless of O2 levels it can kill, only 800 parts per million could be a fatal dose. Most poisionous gasses i.e. H2S, in normally trace proportions are noxious regardless of O2 level, just higher O2 gives a better chance of survival.

CO2 and other inert (as far as a human body is concerned, I include the flamable methane here) gasses will asphixiate, therefore O2 proportion is more relevant.



<600 ppm of H2S is fatal, what makes it worse is that you can smell it and then you can't or all you can smell is H2S (olfactory fatigue) you get used to the smell and you can't tell the difference from good air and bad.
Mr Mike
15 years ago
"owaincbrown" wrote:

"Mr Mike" wrote:

There's a o2 gas meter, from BW / Honeywell, £198+VAT, runs for 2 years, new sensor is around £80.00,

http://www.surveyexpress.co.uk/product.asp?strParents=112&CAT_ID=112&P_ID=505 

I often wonder whether you need the multigas meters,O2 is the most important and if that goes down irrespective of whether you have gone into a Co2/ Co pocket you get out anyway...



Problem with CO is that it combines with the haemoglobin in your red blood cells and prevents the carrying of O2, regardless of O2 levels it can kill, only 800 parts per million could be a fatal dose. Most poisionous gasses i.e. H2S, in normally trace proportions are noxious regardless of O2 level, just higher O2 gives a better chance of survival.

CO2 and other inert (as far as a human body is concerned, I include the flamable methane here) gasses will asphixiate, therefore O2 proportion is more relevant.



Points taken, our thoughts on just an O2 meter are to do with the mines we go down (metal, North Pennines). Not sure you get CO in metal mines, I thought it was a big one for coal mines mostly. H2S, we do encounter it but it is mostly in certain places, where you have had rails submerged in still water, and clears soon, or have our noses been numbed by then? I suppose it is all to do with the risk you are willing to take at the end of the day. Some people would not consider going down a mine in the first place as it is so dangerous in their mind.

Not saying this is the holy gosple - right or wrong: just a few views - mines have been explored for a long time, lets say from the 60's, no one would have had meters then, and even in the 90's. Is the UK's obsessive H&S subliminally creeping in? Another thought, most of us that do lots of exploring will have been through very bad ground that probably will have been far more dangerous than some gas exposure, was the ground ever shored up?

On the other hand going down deep shafts is a different matter, and a meter would be useful, providing it is used correctly.



Mr Mike www.mineexplorer.org.uk
Mr Mike
15 years ago
From a stat point of view it would be interesting to see how many people actually do use gas meters and what gases have they encountered that caused alarms.
Mr Mike www.mineexplorer.org.uk
stuey
  • stuey
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15 years ago
My chum insists on dragging the meter everywhere and only once has it sniffed H2S in an utterly nano amount in some very dry workings with rotting wood. It was within the nose limit.

Managed to get 5% lel on the bottom of a shaft filled with rubbish. So that is 5% of 5% or F/A to be more precise.

Only time I've got CO, was when I was using my meter to get the car through an MOT.

Oxygen is the key point.

As you know, it varies hugely and the 19.5% alarm point is pretty high.

I'm personally good if I take it very easy in 13%. I've also taken it very easy and been fine prussicking in 15% (although it was hard work). These figures may also be fine for other people, they may also have adverse symptoms.

There was one mine where we were itching to go in and everytime we put a gas meter down the shaft, it would go to about 15%. This was too low and we said "no way" and waited for the air to change, low pressures, icy weeks, etc, etc. Then a couple of other people "just did it" and reported it being fine. We did it and it was also fine.

The other weekend, the same chaps who were fine in 15% went into another mine and got "the crushing chest" symptoms in a big drive with no vent. The other day, more chaps went through there right to the end and were fine.

I read a load of reports from the old days and if in doubt, they used to leave lead acetate papers for a week or so, to detect H2S with oxygen, they just used to do it and do it slowly and carefully.

There has been a bit of a culture change recently, with the advent of multiple ropes, rope access techniques, gas meters, etc, etc, etc. I think that a lot of people are keeping themselves out of places, as the meter says no.

A while ago, I was in the back of a "usual trip" in Cornwall where there is known to be bad air. We had a lighter and edged along the drive gradually, whilst paying very careful attention to ourselves and all of a sudden, there was an invisible barrier where the lighter would no longer light. This would be around the 13% mark. However, I gather that you can stroll along there and be fine. (it does go and has been metered down to about 10% which is below GET OUT time for all people)

In answer to your question, a lot of trips, anything which mined sulphides and without decent vent will probably see your meter alarming for oxygen.

You can't make any assumptions about the mine air you will be breathing and you also can't make any assumptions as to how you would fare in it.

All of the above would have been done without meters and people would have bumped into any symtoms. It's also surprising how you get phantom affects by looking at a low meter reading. You think "I'm actually gasping here" when in actual fact it's psychosomatic.

Don't try and replicate any of my figures, for god's sake. It's unlikely you would snuff it, but I don't want any blood on my hands. :surrender:

Edit:- I did a fair amount of reading as to what I should realistically expose myself to without having too much problems. Altitude training/sickness is an interesting thing to read.

Essentially, you have a pressure exerted on your lung by air, a percentage of that is oxygen, so regardless of the composition of air, your lung sees a "partial pressure" of oxygen. Going into an atmosphere with deficent oxygen lowers this "partial pressure" by reducing the significance of the oxygen component.

If you go bloody high up, you reduce the air pressure to half it's value (can't remember which height), the partial pressure of oxygen is reduced to half it's value. This roughly equates to 11% at Sea Level pressure.

Again, there is a lot of bullshit written about this sort of thing, if you consider a decent stormy low pressure of about 900mb and then a high of say 1050mb, you're looking at a 10% difference in the partial pressure of oxygen, so again, there is an actual range in which everyone operates anyway. Clearly, how this is realised in your blood is dependent on a load of other factors.

There is lots written about altitude effects, but virtually nothing about oxygen deficient atmospheres. Just a load of dogma that if you go below 17%, you'll probably act drunk and then cause an avalanche. It comes from the same people who think you need 2 ropes to do everything.

Strangely Brown
15 years ago
Crowcon do single gas personal alarms too and they're not expencive, don't know if it's adjustable, might be fixed life disposable.
http://webshop.glanfordelectronics.com/cgi-bin/gelonline/shop.cgi?c=detail.htm&itemid=CrowconEikon=1&storeid=1 
hunt around though.

Mr Mike, you'd mentioned CO pockets specifically so just relaying what I know, we had an incidence of CO poisoning in our diving club not long ago, fortunately no untoward consequences other than a couple of days in hospital and a refill of the O2 cylinder. Also there isn't an instant recovery for the affected person when the CO levels drop again.
Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels, it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it.
stuey
  • stuey
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15 years ago
CO2 surely?

CO2 sensors are hugely expensive, as I think they're IR based, rather than physical.

I gather that the amount of CO2 in your blood causes your breathing to be at a certain rate. If the level goes up, so does your rate of breathing. It's pretty dangerous as there is a positive feedback loop where you enter a higher atmosphere of CO2, this increases your breathing rate (to try and get rid of it from your blood) and you breathe in more of it. The overall effect being that your blood becomes more acid and all sorts of horrible things happen.

With low O2, if you start panting, you breathe out more CO2 which lowers your rate of breathing, so your breathing slows with symptoms of hypoxia.

Know thyself!

CO is very very very dangerous indeed as we all know. But you really really should be wearing BA if you are somewhere where you are likely to encounter it....as it will probably come with flammables and low O2!
Mr Mike
15 years ago
Some good points Stuey. Interesting what you say about psychosomatic, we've had that.

Also one day the air is good the other bad.

We did a trip down the Brewery Shaft at Nenthead, went to the very end to the final fall, others were complaining about feeling funny, I did not get affected. Tried a lighter, nothing (must be wet I thought), my friend tried his matches, nothing, they just smoldered.

Did the same trip another time, everything lit up.
Mr Mike www.mineexplorer.org.uk
stuey
  • stuey
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15 years ago
Food for thought. It would be interesting to know whether there was a high/low pressure correlation with how the air quality varies. If you have borderline air at high pressure, the partial pressure can be lowered by a further 10%. (10% of 20.9% ie about 2.1%, which is a fair chunk)

The rate of reaction at the oxygen sensor will depend on both pressure and concentration. I'd say that the actual reading could be something with a bit of error. I haven't given this too much thought (and hopefully have missed any schoolboy errors) but I think the gas meter probably makes a rough assumption about air pressure, or it has a "magic box" which measures it and factors it in. Given the actual differences in partial oxygen pressure your lungs can experience at fix ratios (% O2) it would make sense that it did......

I'd like to know more about it.
Earth Worm Jim
15 years ago
My gas monitor arrived today after much gnashing of teeth and waiting for the posty. I just need to eat lots of backed beans so I can test it properly. 🙂
rikj
  • rikj
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15 years ago
"Earth Worm Jim" wrote:

My gas monitor arrived today after much gnashing of teeth and waiting for the posty. I just need to eat lots of backed beans so I can test it properly. :)



May we ask what you went for, the QRAE?

And I hope you got someone else to pay for it as a "big birthday" present!

Earth Worm Jim
15 years ago
"rikj" wrote:

"Earth Worm Jim" wrote:

My gas monitor arrived today after much gnashing of teeth and waiting for the posty. I just need to eat lots of backed beans so I can test it properly. :)



May we ask what you went for, the QRAE?

And I hope you got someone else to pay for it as a "big birthday" present!



Yes it is the QRAE. It's built like a small brick out house and I've had fun setting it off by breathing on it.

It's a "big birthday" present to myself, the folks can give me a lifetime service contact. :happybday:
Earth Worm Jim
15 years ago
I've had great fun testing my gas monitor today. ;D

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