simonrl
  • simonrl
  • 51% (Neutral)
  • Administration Topic Starter
15 years ago
After exploring some levels around Pen y Bryn today and not feeling entirely happy about the air quality in there, started thinking about gas sensors.

I know a few people on here have them; does anybody have any recommendations or suggestions as to makes and models, cost, what gases are the most important to detect high/low concentrations of (aside from low oxygen of course...)

Thanks 🙂
my orders are to sit here and watch the world go by
Ty Gwyn
15 years ago
Butty of our`s is a Mines Rescue Consultant,we`ve used these Sensor`s for locating Black Damp mainly,but they cover most gases.

Will give him a buzz and get info for you,
Don`t fancy a good Oil Lamp then?
christwigg
15 years ago
I can give a non-recommendation.

I got a second-hand GMI-Visa off eBay, although admittedly it cost me next to nothing.

Sometimes it seems to think its CO sensor is faulty, sometimes not. I've managed to make it totally freeze up by dropping it about 1ft. Once the alarm has been going off for a while it seems to stop you from actually turning off the unit unless you remove the battery (which needs an allen key)

I suppose that last one might be a safety feature, but its pretty irritating when you're driving home with it going off in your bag.

Also you cannot customise the alarm levels yourself, so it starts screaming at 02 below 19% which is pretty often in ironstone mines.

I'm sure it might be very capable in a normal workspace, but its not suited to mines at all.
Morlock
15 years ago
Best bet is a 4 gas unit with low oxygen, hydrogen sulphide, CO and % LEL.
The more modern the unit the less re-calibration I would guess?

Edit: Just looked at the prices. 😮 😮 :lol:

Stick with my Davy Lamp I think seeing as I can no longer borrow the company tester.
Ty Gwyn
15 years ago
Simon,
Like Morlock says,thier not cheap.
Butty got back to me,a cheapy for Oxygen levels would be around £120,but beings you boys go in Lead workings,a Multi Gas Detector is the best,Rae Technologies make a good one,the Q-Rae 11,but its around £325.

I do know someone who breeds Canaries as well
christwigg
15 years ago
This is probably worth a punt for someone with a bit of electronics savvy.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CROWCON-TRIPLE-PLUS-GAS-MONITOR-SPARES-REPAIRS_W0QQitemZ230443353510QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_3?hash=item35a77e85a6 

99p start, no bids, they appear to cost £800 new.
Ty Gwyn
15 years ago
Chris,
Sounds like yours needs calibrating,we borrowed one once,the damb thing was eating batteries,and we felt the bad air before the thing buzzed,butty checked it over,and its calibration was out,working fine now.
christwigg
15 years ago
"Ty Gwyn" wrote:

Chris,
Sounds like yours needs calibrating,we borrowed one once,the damb thing was eating batteries,and we felt the bad air before the thing buzzed,butty checked it over,and its calibration was out,working fine now.



Its been calibrated and detects things just fine.
Its just doesnt seem to cope with the rough ride it gets on a normal mine exploring trip.
Morlock
15 years ago
"christwigg" wrote:

This is probably worth a punt for someone with a bit of electronics savvy.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CROWCON-TRIPLE-PLUS-GAS-MONITOR-SPARES-REPAIRS_W0QQitemZ230443353510QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_3?hash=item35a77e85a6 

99p start, no bids, they appear to cost £800 new.



I see it sold for £5.50, who's the lucky guy? 😉
stuey
  • stuey
  • 50.2% (Neutral)
  • Newbie
15 years ago
From experience with several meters, the question will be "where do you draw the line?"

A gas meter will make you paranoid about numbers which perhaps don't relate to your particular physiology.

What would be interesting is to relate low O2 symptoms with readings. Look at a number on a meter and you WILL have symptoms.
Morlock
15 years ago
"stuey" wrote:

From experience with several meters, the question will be "where do you draw the line?"



In work situations 'The Line' is simple, alarm goes off do not enter/withdraw or put on escape set and withdraw to clean air base.
I would suggest that where you encounter low O2 or high CO2 will have a bearing on your next move specially with a heavy gas like CO2.

Many years ago we encountered low Oxy at the bottom of a loose scree slope, a very close run thing.

Edit: I've be paranoid about bad air ever since. 😉
stuey
  • stuey
  • 50.2% (Neutral)
  • Newbie
15 years ago
The preset alarm and "official" oxygen deficient atmosphere is 19.5% which is way high. Put it this way, if you chose that alarm point, you would exclude yourself from a lot of cornish mines.

Morlock
15 years ago
"stuey" wrote:

The preset alarm and "official" oxygen deficient atmosphere is 19.5% which is way high. Put it this way, if you chose that alarm point, you would exclude yourself from a lot of cornish mines.



Yes, I agree. Our incident was without a gas detector and we were all heavy smokers at the time plus we had to exert ourselves considerably to exit the situation.

As said earlier a lot will depend on the particular case.

Edit: Looks like most will be OK down to 16%.

"One of the major problems is the fact that, in the initial stages, those affected do not notice that they are losing control and, instead, have total confidence in their abilities.

Studies have shown that the maximum safe level of oxygen is 23.5% volume, the minimum is 19.5%, and the average oxygen concentration in air is 21%.

At 17% the first signs of deprivation show themselves in the form of judgement errors and, at 16%, anoxia is apparent.

Between 16 and 12% the breathing and pulse rate increases and muscular co-ordination is slightly impaired.

Below 12% and above 10%, emotional upsets, abnormal fatigue upon exertion and disturbed respiration become evident while, between 10 and 6% the sufferer will experience nausea and vomiting, an inability to move freely, and loss of consciousness.

Less that 6% volume will bring convulsive movements and gasping respiration, breathing will stop, and a few minutes later heart action will cease".
Wormster
15 years ago
"christwigg" wrote:

This is probably worth a punt for someone with a bit of electronics savvy.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CROWCON-TRIPLE-PLUS-GAS-MONITOR-SPARES-REPAIRS_W0QQitemZ230443353510QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_3?hash=item35a77e85a6 

99p start, no bids, they appear to cost £800 new.



Fellas, all I have to say is: that's the only one I'd consider!
You all know my views and CROWCON is the only one!
Better to regret something you have done - than to regret something you have not done.
Strangely Brown
15 years ago
I know that the O2 sensors we use for diving gas mixes do burn out after a time and have to be replaced every few years and that we calibrate them each time we use them (either using known clean air or pure O2.
Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels, it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it.
Morlock
15 years ago
"owaincbrown" wrote:

I know that the O2 sensors we use for diving gas mixes do burn out after a time and have to be replaced every few years and that we calibrate them each time we use them (either using known clean air or pure O2.



The Crowcon manual has 5 years for flammable, toxic 3 years and oxygen 2 years.
Not sure of the costs of the spares though.
Strangely Brown
15 years ago
Except those sensors fitted to rebreathers they only need to remain calibrated for the time taken to test a cylinder (a couple of minutes, not a few hours underground) and more importantly calibration can be easily checked again after the test too so their reliability isn't so critical as it would be underground.
The rate the O2 detectors burn out depends on their exposure to O2, more O2 the quicker they fail.
Beware of using diving gas mix detectors, most need a reasonable flow of gas through them i.e. from a cylinder so are not suitable for use in a mine.
Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels, it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it.
Strangely Brown
15 years ago
Except those sensors fitted to rebreathers they only need to remain calibrated for the time taken to test a cylinder (a couple of minutes, not a few hours underground) and more importantly calibration can be easily checked again after the test too so their reliability isn't so critical as it would be underground.
The rate the O2 detectors burn out depends on their exposure to O2, more O2 the quicker they fail.
Beware of using diving gas mix detectors, most need a reasonable flow of gas through them i.e. from a cylinder so are not suitable for use in a mine.
Light thinks it travels faster than anything but it is wrong. No matter how fast light travels, it finds the darkness has always got there first, and is waiting for it.
Earth Worm Jim
15 years ago
I'm in the market for a gas monitor preferable multi gas. From what I can find the main difference is logging and none logging.


EDIT: Having spent some time on Google, is the Tetra:3 that much better than GasAlertMicroClip?
stuey
  • stuey
  • 50.2% (Neutral)
  • Newbie
15 years ago
We got this one:-

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Gas-Detector-QRAE-II-4-gas-LEL-Oxy-CO-H2S-NEW-/180437040111?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item2a02e2bbef 

Which is about the best value you can get.

Personally, I think they are overkill in a lot of situations. I prefer to use a flame, as it's less worrying as well as being less expensive. When the flame goes out, you get out.

Realistically, you aren't going to bump into Flammables or CO, it's mainly down to the odd low amount of H2S (very soluble, hence rare) and low O2.

The first thing you have to do when getting a detector, is calibrate yourself to it, rather than using the alarm point. Different people have different responses to low air. Some start moaning relatively high (like 17%) and some are good down to 10% or so.

They are useful for dipping shafts just to be certain, but in workings, in my opinion, it's better to take it very steady and listen to your body (maaaaan) :flowers:

The adrenaline that was unnecessarily caused by wrong alarm points was ridiculous. The most important thing is having a user set alarm point. If you can get a 1 gas (O2) with a variable point, I'd get this.

I think the most important thing is to know your limits.

I know mine, which is a lot more comforting for knowing how OK I am with various readings.

Disclaimer: Mine exploring can be quite dangerous, but then again it can be alright, it all depends on the weather. Please read the proper disclaimer.
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