tomh
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15 years ago
What do you use to detect bad air? and where do you get it from?
jagman
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15 years ago
"tomh" wrote:

What do you use to detect bad air? and where do you get it from?




A cigarette.
derrickman
15 years ago
good question.

http://www.crowcon.com/  , Drager are also a common type.

Some of the pics posted on here show people using various types of flame lamp, which are used ( among other things ) for sewer work and other forms of confined space entry.

depends on what sort of 'bad air' you mean. The main risk in most accessible adits and mines, would be oxygen deficiency, probably caused by organic material decomposing ( the main risk in sewers ), or de-oxygenation of the air due to iron or sulphide ores oxidising. Ironstone mines are particularly prone to this.

I wouldn't be much concerned about methane in anywhere members of this site are likely to gain access to. Coal mines are usually carefully sealed on abandonment, the Boulby potash beds are far too deep, and I'm leaving sewer tunnels and related structures to the urbex people.
''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change .... oh, I don't know, I've still got a lamp like that.
Dean Allison
15 years ago
"jagman" wrote:

"tomh" wrote:

What do you use to detect bad air? and where do you get it from?




A cigarette.



Damn Jagman I just quit today, I am doomed then!

I dont know anyone who uses a gas meter in mines except in the coal pits. And I wouldnt go in a coal mine thats been abandoned for a long time without breathing gear anyway.
derrickman
15 years ago
atmospheric monitoring is compulsory under MASHAM regs.

ironstone mines suffer from oxygen depletion due to ores oxidising, so do sulphide ore-bodies ( eg Wheal Jane, where a fatal suffocation took place in about 1975 )

South African gold mines can be gassy, although I've never heard of this in UK ones, maybe because it's a subject I've never really paid much attention to.

Boulby Potash is very gassy in parts.

the Cornish hard-rock tin mines used to require radon monitoring in their last years.

shale mines can be gassy, shale being basically part of the coal measures sequence.

there are also man-made problems like diesel exhaust fumes and welding fumes to provide against.
''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change .... oh, I don't know, I've still got a lamp like that.
Dean Allison
15 years ago
Derrickman, cheers for the info that is interesting. I think its a good point he brought up though about bad air. I remember seeing some pics somewhere, not too long ago of some guy exploring an old coal drift using nothing but a glennie (Davy lamp) and, believe it or not, a live canary. (I think perhaps he had some bizarre romanticized vision of being an old time miner as he had the Dickensian sideburns and the old NCB coat etc etc).

The thing is my dad has often told me about his days as a deputy down the pit and you had to be trained to know how to read the flame on those lamps, and its more complicated than I had realised. He has told me a lot of stories about guys he worked with who died within minutes of entering old abandoned drivages that were full of hydrogen sulphide, CO2 etc etc and it certainly put me off going in a coal mine unless I was with with someone highly experienced in that area and with all the proper gear.
stuey
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15 years ago
My partner in crime and myself use a micro 4 gas. CO, LEL, H2S and O2. Really, only the O2 is relevant and in Cornwall IS very relevant, as quite a few mines have bad air where there is no ventilation.

I've used an oil lamp myself and found that to be pretty good, if it goes out, you need to get out. Also, you get pretty good at reading the flame and calibrating whay you observe with how you feel.

I have a bit of a reservation about gas detectors and would almost rather drop a lamp down a shaft and drop it anyway if the flame stayed lit.

A case in point. There is a very interesting mine which people don't go in due to ridiculously low oxygen, it is variable though. A while ago it was deemed an idea to send me down the shaft with the meter set to alarm at 17% (hanging off a bit of string) which is pretty high really. I was going down at a comfortable rate, 20.9, 10ft later 20.8, 10 ft later 20.7. All of a sudden, flashing lights and 17.5 or whatever it was. I shat myself and thought I was in a lot of poo. As I had no idea that humans can function "when a candle will barely burn". I sweat lots, I struggled with the changeover, I didn't panic, but it was not a nice experience. The psychological impact was a lot bigger than the reality. I think I was fine at 17%

A couple of weeks later, 2 chaps I know (who are a tad less careful than me) dropped it and had to come back up as the rope was too short. We had put the detector down there on a rope either side of the date and it was about 15.5%, getting into the territory where a lamp goes out. They said the ascent was fine.

Elfnsafety says 19.5% O2 is oxygen deficient (officially) and you can probably go a fair degree lower than that. Assuming there is no CO2 present (which makes things a LOT worse) people can get right down towards the 14% mark and still function. This is where common sense kick in and say "hang on a minute, this is bloody dangerous". If you are a big bloke who needs to burn some serious oxygen ascending a rope, you may run into trouble. You cannot afford to be going giddy/semi-concious on a rope. You also need a safe margin.

I know a few chaps who use the "fackinell I can't breathe" as a gas meter, and as far as I gather, the air generally doesn't go too much below 15%.

The meter will only tell you how much you are in the grey area you are. Owning a meter will show you how many holes you thought were fine are now in the grey area. You need to do some testing on yourself to find out what you are capable of in what circumstances.

There is very little information on the internet and that which there is, is often contradictory, vague between 10% (in REAL trouble) and 17% (low). One of the chaps we "go down holes with" is a Doc and is going to do a proper study of this. Arterial O2 levels vs atmospheric oxygen levels and then correlate that to degrees of exertion. Another mate is an olympic trainer, so hopefully we can come up with a fair test and a reasonable set of parameters and caveats. That will happen in due course. We have a few guinea pigs lined up for that, in a minimum of about 15%.

A lighter can be a pretty good indicator if you look how it responds in various levels of gas. The flame starts doing very odd things at low readings. Ths snag is that it won't alarm.

I've had a Drager 4 gas which was HUGE and a bloody Neotronics "I cost more to fix than the detector cost" lump. They were both huge units suited to pros. The 4 gas small things are ideal. I'd go for a personal O2 meter myself as you are unlikely to bump into LEL, H2S (beyond smell-parts-per-million) or CO. It's almost tempting to get a 2 year one that you ditch afterwards.

Lamps do go out if you knock them over.

Best of luck and be careful :thumbup:
rikj
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15 years ago
You should be able to get a good working miner's safety lamp for around £50.

Disadvantages are that they tend to be heavy and bulky. The solution is, of course, to man up 😉

I think there are links on here to charts showing how to read the flame.

One thing that doesn't often get mentioned is that when used down a mine even a simple lamp had many checks (20 something?) that should be done before going underground.

christwigg
15 years ago
"Dean Allison" wrote:


I dont know anyone who uses a gas meter in mines except in the coal pits.



Can be a very good idea in Ironstone mines too.
Morlock
15 years ago
This is a handy booklet, lots of info.

[photo]Personal-Album-1695-Image-42681[/photo]

[photo]Personal-Album-1695-Image-42682[/photo]

Edit: I seem to have linked the small pics.
Imageo
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15 years ago
G'day All,

The Dräger Mini-Warn is the weapon of choice at my work-place and standard issue in a lot of Australian metal mines. They're very good but expensive and require regular calibration.

In limestone country watch out for excess CO2 and if stagnant water is around look out for H2S. The last one is particularly nasty at quite low levels and only has the distinctive rotten eggs smell below a certain level.

I've had a couple of occasions (including the top adit at Cligga) where the only hint that I was in bad air was when I realised I was breathing much faster than normal.

Take care out there !

I'm a Geo

'There's a very fine line between a hobby and mental illness.'
derrickman
15 years ago
I deliberately didn't mention the Crowcon 'gasman' for that reason - it's a one-gas unit which is widely used in refineries and chemical plants in particular.

Then again, all electronic units require regular maintenance and calibration, and this isn't cheap.

One unit often seen in sewer work, but rarely in mines for some reason, is the Spiralarm. This is a flame lamp of the Davy type, but has a coil of bi-metallic strip above the flame. When the flame burns up to a certain level, it expands the strip which makes a contact and sets of a flashing red lamp and buzzer, set in the base. It also has a small mirror of polished steel on the base, so you can lower it into a manhole on a rope and see the alarm reflected if it goes off; the same mirror can also carry a strip of chemical-treated paper as a test for sulphides.

They require a special fuel, because if the calorific value isn't right the calibration of the flame isn't correct, but they are easier to read than a Davy lamp

some units also have self-igniters, because they are designed to be carried about in a van and lit at the worksite
''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change .... oh, I don't know, I've still got a lamp like that.
tomh
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15 years ago
As im in Cornwall i understand oxygen deficiency is the main one to look out for. I looked at some of the products mentioned and they are probably overkill for what i need. Whats the simplest oxygen meter i can get?
derrickman
15 years ago
something like the Crowcon Gasman

this will still cost you about £290, require calibration and can be ruined in a moment by getting it wet.

the simplest and cheapest one is the flame lamp, but commenst about experience in reading it apply
''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change .... oh, I don't know, I've still got a lamp like that.
rikj
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15 years ago
"tomh" wrote:

As im in Cornwall i understand oxygen deficiency is the main one to look out for. I looked at some of the products mentioned and they are probably overkill for what i need. Whats the simplest oxygen meter i can get?



These days you can get a single gas, 2 year detector for maybe £120 + VAT & carriage. Pull the tab on the battery and you have 2 years use.

Bear in mind that they will alarm at 19.5% oxygen so pick one that plays a nice tune.
Tamarmole
15 years ago
"tomh" wrote:

As im in Cornwall i understand oxygen deficiency is the main one to look out for. I looked at some of the products mentioned and they are probably overkill for what i need. Whats the simplest oxygen meter i can get?



In the Tamar valley I don't bother with any form of oxygen testing. Having said that this approach needs to be tempered with (a) an awareness of how your body reacts in low oxygen conditions, (b) local knowledge i.e where there is likely to be a problem, for example here in the valley there is a bit a problem at the back end of New East Russell (c) Common sense(especially when using vertical techniques).

That said that a fag lighter can give useful reasurance.

In nearly twenty years of exploring abandoned mines I've only had one near miss. In the early 1990s I was exploring Monument Mine (Great ayton) with Richard Pepper and we got caught by poor air. At the time I was a heavy smoker and I was affected before the others so we were able to beat a hasty retreat. In the light of this the answer is simple take a smoker along with you as a human canary 😉
derrickman
15 years ago
"rikj" wrote:

"tomh" wrote:

As im in Cornwall i understand oxygen deficiency is the main one to look out for. I looked at some of the products mentioned and they are probably overkill for what i need. Whats the simplest oxygen meter i can get?



These days you can get a single gas, 2 year detector for maybe £120 + VAT & carriage. Pull the tab on the battery and you have 2 years use.

Bear in mind that they will alarm at 19.5% oxygen so pick one that plays a nice tune.



which unit do you have in mind?
''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change .... oh, I don't know, I've still got a lamp like that.
stuey
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15 years ago
This looks pretty good.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BW-GAS-DETECTOR-GASALERTCLIP-EXTREME-OXYGEN-MONITOR_W0QQitemZ170392524575QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET?hash=item27ac2f971f 

This is our one and comes highly recommended. Very highly in fact.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Gas-Detector-Gas-Monitor-QRAE-II-LEL-O2-CO-H2S_W0QQitemZ110447893014QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET?hash=item19b7351a16 

Never ever be tempted to buy a secondhand one, even if it virtually free. You will pay, oh yes.

Having one you can turn the alarm off on (and just have the flashy lights) is a good idea. The alarms are usually a pain in the arse.

Edit. Sod the single gas one. Get the 4 gas. They have individual sensors, so you don't get raped for all of them when the O2 dies. Matey also does cheap calibration and I think ours had it's first year calibration/test free.

I had a Neotronics one which was ferking big. It was like a playstation hanging off my belt!

derrickman
15 years ago
the QRAE one is very good. I didn't mention it because last time I bought them, they were £400-plus.

def agree about not using single-gas ones
''the stopes soared beyond the range of our caplamps' - David Bick...... How times change .... oh, I don't know, I've still got a lamp like that.
rikj
  • rikj
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15 years ago
"derrickman" wrote:

"rikj" wrote:

"tomh" wrote:

As im in Cornwall i understand oxygen deficiency is the main one to look out for. I looked at some of the products mentioned and they are probably overkill for what i need. Whats the simplest oxygen meter i can get?



These days you can get a single gas, 2 year detector for maybe £120 + VAT & carriage. Pull the tab on the battery and you have 2 years use.

Bear in mind that they will alarm at 19.5% oxygen so pick one that plays a nice tune.



which unit do you have in mind?



Not used one myself but have considered them,

http://www.jmwlimited.co.uk/BW_GasAlertClip_Extreme_Gas_Detector.html 

I think there will be other makes in the same bracket.



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